@ Hauta

"As for the empty tomb, is it possible that the Romans disposed of the body elsewhere in order to save money on guards?"

This seems counter-intuitive. By doing this the Romans would have been doing the very thing they were trying to avoid. The prophecy was that Jesus would rise on the third day, why would the Romans make it appear that this had happened? Pontius Pilate would have had to be incompetent and a buffoon to do this "Yeah, Yeah, Caiaphas, I will post a guard to make sure nobody steals the body and makes it look like this guy is the Messiah" and then he turns around to his guard "You guys got a lot of overtime this week already, just dump the body somewhere and take the night off." I can't really see any plus for the Romans on that one.

@ Hauta

You are right though that Jesus isn't mentioned by name. There are like fourty-four or so prophecies that he fulfilled some of which he had no control over. I have heard the argument that "Well, after the fact, its pretty easy to fulfill the prophecies since you knew they had been made". Still when one of the prophecies is come back from the dead, it can present a problem to the average charlatan.

Thanks Crazy, I think I learned something!

I guess I am having a hard time following your argument. I could counter So what if some other descendant of David could have been the Messiah? They weren't, right? Otherwise we would be having a very different conversation. Which other descendant of David, do you think is a better fit for the Messiah than Jesus?

Ooops, fast posted ya. sorry.

May I ask what is is that you think you learned?

There are claims that Jesus' second coming would be 'like a thief in the night' (ie in and out and no-one noticed) - and that this second coming was Bahá'u'lláh in fact you can see all the claims made here*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h#Claims

This line of reasoning, would lead on to believe that the Baha'i faith is closer to God than Christianity.

Likewise - most protestant religions would argue that Catholicism has lost its way from the bible in a lot of Church Doctrine, and that it is only through reading the word of god that you can be close to god...

None of these claims convince me even slightly that one source of information is any more canonical than any of the others.

*tl;dr: Bahá'u'lláh's eschatological claims constitute six distinctive messianic identifications:
from Judaism, the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father"

from the Yuletide prophecy of Isaiah 9:6, the "Lord of Hosts";

from Christianity, the "Spirit of Truth" or Comforter predicted by Jesus in his farewell discourse of John 14-17 and the return of Christ "in the glory of the Father";

from Zoroastrianism, the return of Shah Bahram Varjavand, a Zoroastrian messiah predicted in various late Pahlavi texts;

from Shi'a Islam the return of the Third Imam, Imam Husayn;

from Sunni Islam, the return of Jesus (Isa);

and from Bábism, He whom God shall make manifest.

@orathaic

Interesting, I will have to take a look at some of those before I can really give a response.

I do agree that the agnostic approach of "I have looked at the evidence presented and reject it" is probably your best line of reasoning if you deny the Resurrection.

@orathaic

I think I understand a little better after having looked at the wikipedia article you cite. Okay, so what is the evidence that Bahá'u'lláh or his followers presented to support his claim of being the "symbolic rather than literal" fulfillment of these six messianic prophecies?
For me, I find the eye-witness testimonies of Christ’s resurrection to be compelling. I honestly have heard no counterclaim that I found credible as to why so many people (who both believed in God and that leading others astray would have serious personal consequences) would submit to torture and death without even one of them recounting their story.

This thread has become a Christian rave party. Crazy Anglican, you do realize that every religion has its eyewitnesses and its martyrs?

Many people came back from the dead in the bible.

https://www.gotquestions.org/raised-from-the-dead.html

@Jeff, but only Jesus has the combo: resurrection + eternal life. This offer is essential for the Christian reward scheme. Because what use is being good if there's no reward, right?

@Zmaj

#1) What was it meant to be?

#2) I am aware of eyewitnesses and martyrs, sure. What I am not aware of is the eyewitnesses being the martyrs themselves in large numbers. That's what I said was compelling for me, not just the existence of either.

@ Jeff Kuta

Yes, lots of people were resuscitated, and have been since (Near death experiences). I think what makes Jesus unique is the assumption into Heaven rather than just dying again later.

@Zmaj

"This offer is essential for the Christian reward scheme. Because what use is being good if there's no reward, right? "

Do you honestly think that no Christian does anything altruistically? What about those that believe that it is faith in Christ that redeems and not good works?

Do you honestly think that no non-Christian ever has expectation of reward for doing good works?

That line of reasoning seems suspect to me. At best it seems like card-stacking against Christians.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Exactly, both are necessary. Thus doing good deeds is only doing your duty as a Christian, and should not be done with any expectations of reward.

If you asked a Christian "How many good works would get me into Heaven without accepting Jesus as my Savior and having faith in Him" you would get a basic idea of how important faith in Jesus is with regard to good works. For most of us they are both necessary and good works are just what you would expect to see from someone who truly accepts Christ.

@CA, i don't know, ask one of hos followers (there are about six million in over 100 countries today).

I can tell you it includes fulfilling prophecy, and revelations from god, the same sort of thing which was claimed above for Jesus, and it doesn't in any way question your beliefs, it merely adds one (or a few) prophet/revelation.

Of course i am a skeptic. And while my faith in pantheism is imshakable - akd this unscientific; i appreciate the beaity and simplicity of the Baha'i faith and belief in unity of all world religions. Because i too believe in a kind of unity, all of the Universe as the one and only true God. Yet i don't concern myself with such details as the reserection of Jesus or the revelations of any other prophet.

I only concern myself with the practical effect of following the teachings, so if the Buddha, or Jesus, or Bahá'u'lláh have a message i see as worth following, it will listen to it. Rather than needing to assume they are inspired by a revelation from God. We are all parts of the Universe, everything we do is this in some way holy, and so i don't see the poont in arguing the toss over which religious leader has more evidence for or against them. None of them are any more 'the literal son of god' than I am, or than you are.

Hopefully that gives you an understanding of where i'm actually coming from. All humans are capable of great deeds. And it is for us to evaluate them not blindly follow.

@Crazy Anglican, stop beating about the bush. The notion of a reward in heaven is central to Christianity. It is simply a business. Whether you invest good deeds or faith in Christ is irrelevant for the basic mechanism at work here.

So, yes, Joel Osteen may be evil, but not being a true follower of Jesus isn't really relevant to my understanding of why that may be the case.

John 3:16, amiright?

Does cptmike outrank CAPTBrad? Or does commanderbyron outrank both

@Zmaj, any religion worth its salt will have an internally consistent set of beliefs and be untestable scientifically, and ultimately a matter of faith for its followers. (Hell, even atheists and believers in science as "God" can't definitively DISprove a *spiritual* God.) Thus, pronouncing Christianity a business does nothing to shake the faith of the devout. imo, whatever you choose to believe or not believe doesn't matter to me as long as you are not a destructive member of society.

Thank you, Captain Obvious... I mean, Hauta.

If it's so obvious, why you trying to shit on Crazy_Anglican and all of Christianity? Are you just publicly pissing in the wind?

^triggered

@Zmaj re: "triggered"

Are you just trying to justify being an asshole?

@ brainbomb

CAPT = O6
Commander = O5
Cpt = O3.

but who is counting?

Just after this beautiful thought "doesn't matter to me as long as you are not a destructive member of society."

You decide that being an asshole who is a destructive member of society is worth celebrating... Thanks for the boost to my confidence in our race.

@Ora, "race" or "species"?