Do yourself a favor and qualify your theory, please. I would appreciate evidence as you apparently know my views on things quite well.

My recollection is that you supported the military coup against Morsi in Egypt, and were supporting the "moderate rebels" in Syria as well when that was cool. Please let me know if I'm wrong, I will admit my memory isn't what it used to be.

"Also why even make this attempt when Erdogan wasn't even in the country? Reports say he was vacationing. This makes no sense."

If the coup target is out of town, it's hard (or impossibly) for him to exert his authority. It's also easy to believe claims that he's been killed or captured if people can't see him or get a hold of him. You also have fragmentation among the loyalist faction (power struggles, challenges to authority, etc.) which the leader isn't around to keep a lid on.

Vacation time is a popular time for coups. The communist hardliners' coup against Gorbachev also kicked off when Gorby was vacationing on the Black Sea.

I happen to be against the Muslim Brotherhood but if I may be frank I had no clue what I was talking about when it came to anything other than picking my nose and hitting a baseball back in 2013 when Morsi was ousted. I'm sure you'll have no trouble agreeing with me there. Maybe you can relate to knowing nothing too.

Do you not support the "moderate rebels" in Syria? I personally do not care for dictators that use sarin against their own citizens. I personally do not care for human rights violations. That's why I was on a planning board for Invisible Children in the lead up to their campaign to send soldiers to central Africa to find and arrest Joseph Kony and his soldiers. Likewise, I don't particularly care for the North Korean cake boy - he does a lot of terrible things to people that don't deserve it. Ironically enough, I could say the same thing about Benjamin Netanyahu, but on that point it seems you are quite hesitant to listen.

So, Tolstoy, are you done dropping subtly anti-Semitic turds or do you have something to say to me?

Tolstoy, Erdogan and Israel had reconciled, I thought. They're certainly not openly against each other to the extent they were before.

I also don't know what you mean by sit back and let plotters destroy his government because

1) He clearly didn't stop this coup from happening

2) Literally this is all of his own doing. Western governments loved him before he started infringing upon civil liberties and the justice system. He was allied with the Gulenists until he pretty unilaterally declared war on them because they didn't hide his son's corruption (not sure if that started it or not). As for the military, it's been almost a decade since the Ergenekon trials. If that didn't cause the military to launch a coup, I would hardly say they were plotting against him from the beginning. Something more recent had to be the trigger for all these "plots". And my theory is that it was his actions to combat plots that never existed that led to the creation of genuine plots against him.

Also, you seem to be lumping the Syrian uprising in with military coups. They aren't the same thing. Burkina Faso was a military coup. Syria was a fairly unified rise against a despot with a split military.

I wouldn't say the opening of diplomatic ties was a reconciliation as much as it was simply an agreement on paper. Erdogan was no friendlier in his speeches about Israel afterwards than he was before.

I mean, Erdogan is turning out to be a shit politician (internationally). His country is in a position where he should have the West eating out of his hands and thanking him for it, but his version of it is throwing the food on the ground and having us grudgingly accept it while loathing him in secret.

Hey, it's apparently either him or ISIS. You can't be against them both. Apparently.

"it's apparently either him or ISIS"

That's exactly what it is. Every toppled Middle Eastern government has turned to a terrorist haven.

To a degree, yes, that's true, but that doesn't make supporting a ruthless dictator that, if he weren't friendly toward the west, could easily be on trial in the ICC for human rights violations of all kinds is the right thing to do, particularly if the real goal is to combat terrorism.

They become terrorist havens because they either aren't replaced (like Libya) or are replaced by an unpopular and/or corrupt government (like Iraq).

So is this gonna be another civil war that is prolonged and pointless?

"To a degree, yes, that's true, but that doesn't make supporting a ruthless dictator that, if he weren't friendly toward the west, could easily be on trial in the ICC for human rights violations of all kinds is the right thing to do, particularly if the real goal is to combat terrorism."

No one said you have to support them, but the reality is that they're the least worst choice for the Middle East.

"I had no clue what I was talking about when it came to anything other than picking my nose and hitting a baseball back in 2013 when Morsi was ousted."

It's good to know your limitations, but 2013 isn't exactly ancient history.

"Ironically enough, I could say the same thing about Benjamin Netanyahu, but on that point it seems you are quite hesitant to listen."

Ironically enough, if I said what you just said here, I would be denounced for anti-Semitism.

"So, Tolstoy, are you done dropping subtly anti-Semitic turds or do you have something to say to me?"

My main point was a little subtler than what you're thinking, and would've still applied even if you weren't Jewish. Don't worry, though, you'll still get to call me anti-Semitic after the big reveal here.

"Do you not support the "moderate rebels" in Syria? I personally do not care for dictators that use sarin against their own citizens."

This is my point. The sarin gas attack that was on the top of the media playlist for like a week and was the justification for American involvement was actually the opposite of what you were told - it was actually the *rebels* that used it! But you are still convinced two years later that Assad - Israel's long time whipping boy - was the culprit. That's the power of big media, it can repeat lies over and over again until they are burned into peoples' brains. Then, when the truth comes out months or years later, it's a blip on A25 and no one remembers it - the lie becomes the truth, only because people don't remember what the truth was actually revealed to be, but weren't allowed to forget the lie.

The media is constantly molding public opinion in the direction of wiping out Israel's enemies (or perceived enemies). Saddam. Iran. Qadaffi. Assad. Palestinians. Lebanese. Erdogan. Morsi. Maybe it's a huge coincidence and I'm just a paranoid anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist, but don't you find it odd that the American media NEVER whips up public opinion against clearly brutal and despotic regimes Israel favors, like Sisi and his bload-soaked military government? Or the compliant and submissive Mahmoud Abbas? And why the chronically coup-happy Turkish army which just tried to overthrow the democratically elected government is always favorably portrayed as the doorstop keeping Turkey from turning into Taliban Afghanistan?

I have no doubt you sincerely believe it's all just a coincidence your opinions always line up with Israel's foreign policy agenda, but believe me, it's not.

"The media is constantly molding public opinion in the direction of wiping out Israel's enemies (or perceived enemies). ... Iran."
And then that encourages Congress to go and do stupid shit like sacrificing the economic freedom of companies so that they can bolster their paranoid and aggressive agendas. I thought I had gotten my rant out over the shooting down of the Boeing deal but man it still is kinda dumb.

"Tolstoy, Erdogan and Israel had reconciled, I thought. They're certainly not openly against each other to the extent they were before."

Yes, the publicly kissed and made up a week or two ago, IIRC. But I imagine Erdogan is not, deep down, a big fan of Israel, and the Israelis would love to see him replaced with a secular military that isn't burdened by sentiment for the plight of other Muslims.

"I also don't know what you mean by sit back and let plotters destroy his government because 1) He clearly didn't stop this coup from happening"

No, he didn't, but it's pretty likely he stopped it from succeeding. It sounds like cleaning house among the police was the key to his survival.

"Western governments loved him before he started infringing upon civil liberties and the justice system."

Loved him? Every time I've heard mention of him, he's been called an "Islamist". And they obviously didn't love him enough to let Turkey into the EU. The West has always been quite fond of the Turkish military's secularism and "stabilizing influence" and leery of any Muslim with sincere religious convictions. If the coup had succeeded, it would have been hailed as a victory for freedom and progress by the western media no doubt, just as Sisi's coup was in Egypt.

"And why the chronically coup-happy Turkish army which just tried to overthrow the democratically elected government is always favorably portrayed as the doorstop keeping Turkey from turning into Taliban Afghanistan?"

You had me with Sisi and Abbas, but lost me with that one. Turkey's army is and always has been secular. The last time they acted (1997) was against Islamists. The Turkish army has also always handed power back to a civilian government, and at least in the 1971 and 1980 coups, acted to quell the anarchy that was spreading throughout Turkey

"It sounds like cleaning house among the police was the key to his survival."

If by "clean house" you mean "install cronyism and corruption to prevent a corruption investigation into my family" then yes, I agree.

Islamist didn't use to be the derogatory term it is today. Back in 2006-2007, Turkey was a vital ally in Iraq, a shining example of a moderate Muslim-led democracy, and a booming economy. None of those things are true anymore.

You gotta remember that he's been in power for almost fifteen years. "In the beginning" refers to quite some time ago. By 2011-12, opinion of him was already turning. By 2014, it was outright alarm.

Tolstoy, I get what you're saying but I read Al Jazeera alongside NPR for most of my politics. I assure you that they're the last media group that is going to have subtle pro-Israel undertones.

Between his actions in Egypt and Yemen, I'm no fan of Sisi. His supporters seem not to understand that it would be difficult to fall much lower than Egypt was when he took over, hence the economic "improvements."

As for being called anti-Semitic for hating Netanyahu, that's bullshit and you know it. He's a government figure who actively institutes genocide. Hate him all you want.

Lol the Israelis hate Netanyahu but a mess of political incompetence means they're stuck with him.

Sounds like most countries we talk about on here.

Not many have it as hard as Israelis though. The leftists are super incompetent, the centrists are very ambitious so they're hard to coordinate, which leaves the rightists, and some of the rightist parties make Netanyahu seem almost moderate, so Likud will keep getting votes, and as long as Likud get votes Netanyahu will be leader.

Im Turkish. No problem. I fighted in Sakarya. Jets bombed Erdogan's hotel in the Marmaris. But he was in the Istanbul. Coup is blocked .

I joined action

What's your opinion on Erdogan then, yavuzovic? On how he's treated the media or the courts?

Supposedly this morning he's replaced over 2,000 judges already. The Independent is already calling the coup the equivalent of the Reichstag fire.

So given that this coup is a good thing....ANYONE SURPRISED THAT OBAMA IS AGAINST IT?

We know he is not oposed to overthrowing governments, as he has helped depose stable governments of allies in many cases, leaving the regions so-affected in a quagmire of militant Islam...

...and now he is desparate to keep a militant Islamic ruler in power....

<sigh>