' Why should we normalize things that will absolutely cause harm to someone? If someone in a mental hospital thought they could fly and jumped off the building, would you not try to stop that person?'

How do you measure absolute harm to someone? Would removing an arm be different to you if we could re-grow it? A temporary change which was reversible? I think we'd allow people lop off their limbs to see if it helped them first.

And if it didn't they could grow new ones. (Probably only a few decades away)

But if someone thought they could fly, when they demonstratably couldn't they are out of touch with reality. And i entirely agree they should be protected from reality and themselves.

How about religitards?

Should idiots who believe there is a giant man in the sky be able to give money away to enterprises without those enterprises having to pay taxes like everyone else?

I don't know, chopping off limbs definitely sounds like harm. And I believe we are talking about reality in the modern day, in which we can't just regrow fully functional limbs. If someone has some sort of reverse phantom-limb syndrome, where they don't think they really want that leg, or it doesn't belong to them, that is a psychiatric problem, not a physical one. They need help, not from a surgeon but from a psychiatrist.

@SC, Probably. But I don't know anybody who believes that there is a giant man in the sky, so it seems less pressing in any event.

@KC,

You are running into the paralysis of the modern progressive mind, which has cut away too much of all value systems to be able to say with confidence anymore that cutting a healthy person's leg off is harming him.

It's possible to be modern and progressive and not, like, completely retarded.

@KC - a few things.

Without Universal Health care, your opinion on what they need is irrelevant,". It becomes a personal matter between themselves and their doctor.

The state should still regulate to make sure doctors 'do no harm' - but reverse phantom limb syndrome sounds like a valid reason that this isn't harmful.

IF and ONLY IF such a thing exists.

We're talkig about the modern world, where i haven't met someone with tha syndrome, i haven't read personal statements from 17 year olds who committed suicide rather than live bullied by their families, i haven't heard advocacy groups unite behind suffers.

Body-modding with some, arguably crazy, trans-humanist aims, seems perfectly rational by comparison. We're still talking about the real world when they say 'but in the future we'll all be machines'... This is a real movement. Now you don' have to respect this movement. But claiming they are ultimately mentally ill isn't just.

Semck, now look what you started! *sigh*

So young. So ignorant. So krellin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAvQp-Uk5I

Jeffy-poo. Haters hate. Just because you don't understand me you hate me. Racist asshole.

If you elected to have a perfectly good leg removed, should you still qualify for the choice parking space? That's my question.

Come here kids, get your leg chopped off and skip every line in every amusement park!

"Just because you don't understand me you hate me."

krellin loves playing the victim. He needs love and sympathy.

no he just hates above all else others claiming victim because he firmly believes most of their reasons for doing so are complete and utter bullshit

krellin is such a victim he needs others to speak for him.

As per the OP, of course our personal opinions matter. The question was whether this sort of behavior should be supported. I would say no, it shouldn't. Doctors should also not be forced to "do harm." If you want to take a knife to yourself, or you can find someone willing to, fine. Go ahead. I'm not stopping you. But don't expect me to support it or support forcing others to do it for you.

Reverse phantom limb syndrome is hardly "not harmful." The point of phantom limb syndrome is that it is in the patient's mind. This is a psychiatric problem.

And yes, I don't know if that is an actual thing, but we are discussing hypotheticals.

It doesn't seem that crazy, if it isn't done for a psychiatric reason. Stating that a mechanical arm is better can be a reasoned statement, with proof and merit. Saying you feel like your arm doesn't belong to you does not meet this criteria. I see no other explanation other than some sort of illness. There is a disconnect with reality. It doesn't matter if it "feels" right.

Y2k - bingo. Jeff is one of the chief victims around here, too. Thinks that my disagreement with him is an attack - I.e. Jeffy-poo thrives on victim status.

krellin is off his rocker, as normal.

To reiterate, krellin: "Just because you don't understand me you hate me."

For one, don't make attributions to other people of things that have not been said. YOU ARE A LIAR.

Second, krellin: "Thinks that my disagreement with him is an attack"
Um, where did I say this? Nowhere. Did any of my comments even convey that I was worried about you attacking me. That is laughable. AND YOU ARE A LIAR.

Third, krellin: "I wish a painful death upon you." Pretty freaking close to a violation of Rule #1 of the forum: "Do not make personal threats toward members or their families."

Enjoy your anger and small-mindedness, krellin. That seems to be what sustains you.

Awwwwww,.....Jeffy-Poo is STILL in a rage, because he can't grasp any nuanced concepts.

Jeffy-Poo....please, little boy, come up with some original concept....actually CONTRIBUTE to a conversation, other than being a knee-jerk puss-wad and attacking me like a predictable shit after bad Mixican food.

Such a tiny, small mind in...no doubt....such a tiny, small package.

And....THERE IT IS....Jeffy -Poo...FOREVER THE VICTIM....allllll-most asking for me to be banned because he claims I am trying to victimize him.

Grow up, tiny child. Don't make me mock you again, you eternal victim.

And....by the way, please call me "Brother" from here on out...because, after all, as a newly recognized Black member of this community, having decided to reveal my long held KNOWLEDGE of myself...that which I was afraid to admit...I would prefer you use my cultural language to address me. I know that typically I wouldn't not let someone as arroant and lilly-white as you use my in-culture term to address me...but...you know...I am all about peace and harmony.

So....Jeffy-Poo...from henceforth on, I *demand* that you refer to me as "Brother Krellin"...or I'll pop a cap in yo' ass, you racist prick.

Brother? That makes you sound like a monk. Or like everyone talking to you is Hulk Hogan.

Honky. I'm old school black. I first realized I was black in the late 70's. Call me Brother, if you must call me anything. There are probably a few other terms - spear chucker, for example - that if you dare utter will bring a swift end to your cracker ass - but again those are hold-overs from the age of my "birth" as a black man, if you will, and have probably fallen out of use anyway. I'm just saying...tread lightly.

Krellin you weren't born black, but maybe events and circumstances in your childhood/adolescence convinced you that you were. Caitlyn Jenner wasn't born a woman, something in her past made her realize she identified with womanhood more than manhood. No one is born gay or straight, no baby/toddler wants to fuck. There are some basic outward physical aspects to our nature that come at birth, but the shit in our heads is a mystery and will be for a long time, we'll probably be extinct before we fully understand the human brain. The concept behind progressive acceptance of people wanting to do things differently and be things differently comes from understanding that, and particularly that we can't understand fully what makes others happy, and who's to tell us that conformity to "reality", or our physical appearance, is necessary? Now if you could argue that Bruce becoming a chick is bad for society, or outwardly gay people are bad for society, or you getting a Negroplasty is bad for society, then go ahead. But generally calling it ridiculous to want to be something you're not isn't going to hold any water

"Caitlyn Jenner wasn't born a woman, something in her past made her realize she identified with womanhood more than manhood. No one is born gay or straight, no baby/toddler wants to fuck"

@y2kjbk I'm so glad that an expert in neuropsychology has joined the forum to educate us on the origins of sexuality and gender.


Look at your assumptions carefully. You seem to be accepting of people other than yourself, but be careful about your ideas about where it comes from. Because down that road lies Homosexual Repairitive Therapy and other misguided attempts to "fix" people who had some kind of "trauma" (you called it "something in her past").

Sexuality isn't just about wanting to fuck. It's about who you're attracted to, who you fall in love with. Babies don't want to fuck because they don't have the hormonal drive for it - but small children often show who they are attracted to long before puberty.

Neuropsychology has shown actual physical differences in the brain of straight and gay people - which implies this is genetic,

Is transgenderism genetic? I don't know. But I sure as hell am never going to tell someone that something must have happened in their past to make it that way - because that turns who they are into a mental problem.

Yes I do believe that the preferences and choices we make in life, consciously or subconsciously, are driven much more by the events in our life from birth to age 8 or so, than they are by our genetic code. No I'm not a scientist and don't have proof for this, but based on the people I know and what I know about how the brain generally processes information, I do really think that while genetics will give us the template for the neural networks in our brain, it's the regular inputs getting sent to the brain during prime developmental years that play the primary role in who we become.

The difficulty with that is that any behavior that is learned can be unlearned. But Homosexual Repairative Therapy has been shown to be entirely unsuccessful. You can make homosexuals get married to opposite gendered people, but you never get rid of the desires. You can't unlearn being gay, therefore you didn't learn it.

Could you unlearn being straight?

The thing is I'm not talking about behaviors. I'm talking about someone's general way of thinking that is templated at birth, but far from established until around age 8 or so. I do not think you can unlearn the way you think, and the way you think is far from fixed at birth.

Y2k - sooooo..... What are you saying? All I know is that about 30 some years ago I realized I was black. The circumstances of my actual birth are irrelevant. I know what I am. I don't need your psycho mumbo jumbo to either support me or contradict me. Just accept me as I have finally found to bravery to present myself.

Coincidentally my wife is very excited about my pending operation so that I will truly be black, even as we now have struggles being a bi-racial family. Our family's just refuse to understand...

If only I were rich enough to but the media's good graces, so that my present state could be foster upon society. Of course, racist media would never back me..