If it's their own choice not to have one fine. It makes no sense whatsoever to claim that feminism is compatible with outlawing abortion for everybody. (and not that we should take Octo remotely seriously on what conforms to feminism anyway). Plenty of 12 week old fetuses have yet to develop birth defects, like having no brain. You think forcing women to bring such fetuses to term is a feminist position? You think supporting the pro-life movement, and their opposition to having access to basic pre-natal care not to mention IUDs and other contraception, is perfectly compatible with feminism?

You've completely lost it.

Octo - all this talk of feminism has brought out the cave man in you

Nothing makes a conservative's day like wearing a chip on their shoulder while screaming about the PC police, wailing about how their anti-egalitarian attitudes aren't coddled by society.

Nigee, you should look at virtually every past thread we've had about women's issues with Octavious as a participant, and then promptly ignore all the taunting Octavious will do here to the left about feminism. Some people are counting on us having no memory whatsoever.

Note how I said - "IF" you don't believe that a man's place in the home is as up for debate as a woman's, only then is it a problem. Not trying to pigeonhole anyone.

Also, that depends on what you mean by 'place in the home' - obviously every human being has a place in his or her home - thats a tautology of sorts.
And that is not what I was referring to ofcourse. The notion that a woman's sphere of life is exclusively or primarily confined to the home - i.e the kitchen, child care etc. is quite evidently what I was referring to.

Nothing makes a Communist's day.

If a Communist has a good day its unfair, therefore no one can have good days

Thanks Semck for tanking what could have been a substantive thread.

Also, I find this abortion debate silly.
The feminist point - is that it should be the woman's choice - whatever that choice is.

A woman is free to choose whether to have or not have an abortion. It is not the 'act' of abortion that is feminist or not feminist. It is the 'freedom to choose' that is the issue.
The issue is men deciding what women can or cannot do with their bodies- in this case have or not have an abortion.

@ Nigee

Oh? What have I said aside from understanding that women can hold a variety of differing opinions and still be feminists?

Ofcourse there is a larger debate over the ethics of abortion and whether or not that is compatible with human rights - but that isn't a feminist debate per se. Thats a moral or human rights debate.

@Sh@dow: to answer your earlier question, I think grey area is the wrong word. I'm saying that it's up to each couple to determine what responsibilities each member takes on.

I do agree with your last statement about abortions though. I think that the feminist argument for abortion is definitely a factor of the argument, but in that specific area of debate I think there are more factors than just a 'woman's right to choose'

Remember when Octavious said pancake day was more important and relevant than international women's day?

Oh but he knows what feminism should be, does he?

Putin, old chap, if I were to ask Mrs Octavious whether she would prefer tomorrow to be international women's day or pancake day I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that she would opt for pancake day.

The thing is, Putin, we listen to different women. The difference between us is that you wish to impose the views of the women you listen to over everyone else, whereas I am quite happy to let people live as they wish.

No you're not. You just claimed that supporting a ban on abortion is perfectly compatible with feminism. That isn't allowing people to live as they wish. Spare me the Liberty Bell routine.

And I don't give a damn what token women you can find to provide you cover for your horrendous record of statements hostile to women. Anybody can find a token that is willing to throw their own under the bus. There are plenty of women in Operation Rescue, Phylis Schafly is a woman, they're still not feminists.

Fuck you, Putin, you vile piece of hate filled shit. How dare you accuse my other half of being a token woman! You are one of the worst kind of controlling male arseholes. Any woman who happens to disagree with you is immediately belittled and demeaned.

Pathetic piece of scum.

Go cry about it. You exploit your wife to win cheap debate points against feminism and then whine when you're called out for tokenism.

What's next, you trot out your black friends to talk about why anti-discrimination laws aren't needed?

"You are one of the worst kind of controlling male arseholes."

Yeah, I get this is your new routine now. Claim that everybody is a controlling male arsehole and you're the only true feminist. A recurring trope from the far-right, after all the bile and disgusting shit you people say about women and women's rights on a regular basis, you want us to believe it's all indicative of some deep appreciation of women's opinions. What a load of bs.

I just wanted to get back to Octavious' point about:

"I think any woman on the forum would be well advised not to draw attention to the fact unless she enjoys the thought of being pestered for a female perspective on every issue under the sun."

Clearly this raises a real issue, in that this site is not supportive of the point of view any women. That to me is pretty unacceptable, and, the fact you say it so nonchalantly implies that you are OK with this being the status quo here. Even that you think it is "right" in a place filled primarily the points of view of men.

I don't even really want to get into the second part:

"Also there are an awful lot of aggressive male debaters here. Can you imagine the sort of attacks a woman would face from many of our male feminists if she was strongly against abortion, for example? I certainly wouldn't put myself in that position."

Again, you seem to imply targeting women's opinions is an OK thing to do here.

It's kind of distressing that nobody else was bothered by these comments. It's also kind of distressing that an ongoing theme in here seems to be the implication that all women (or at least all feminist's) should share the same opinion on every issue.

Hahahahahaha. Wow.

@Lando

Oh, I was bothered. The fact that this is not a space friendly to women is not a laughing matter, it's a testament to how many shitbags are here, and indeed how bad the entire Internet is for women.

Right, the problem is what becomes the normal behaviour when lots of men interact together. It says more about a wider problem than here, but we'd also hope that this place could be different.

@Octavious - "Is that Harriet Harperson making a mockery of Parliament's dress code?" This would be the dress code that allows the Speaker to decide if he should wear a wig, allows for soft hats as well as hard hats as long as one does not speak whilst wearing any hat and which draws the wrath of the Speaker if a male MP does not wear a tie, but is silent on what women may wear? I think the code makes a mockery of itself to be fair. If the Speaker didn't name Ms Harmen then the code hasn't been breached.

So, after arguing about what can be "feminism" or not, wouldn't it be advisable to get a definition? From Google:

fem·i·nism
ˈfeməˌnizəm
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

So, one can be a feminist by supporting women's rights. Now, as there is not a set definition of what is or is not a women's right, then shouldn't there be feminists who support different rights, as their conscience deems fit?

"Oh, I was bothered. The fact that this is not a space friendly to women is not a laughing matter, it's a testament to how many shitbags are here, and indeed how bad the entire Internet is for women. "

I am not directing this comment at Thucy, per se, but to all the so-called white knights of Liberalism out to **defend** the poor wittle womyns.

You people....seriously...think about this. You try to impress upon us how *enlightened* you are, in that you think women are completely equal and etc etc etc....and then tell us that women are too weak, too pathetic, too whatever to be able to defend themselves in this forum.

<shakes head> It hillarious/sad/pathetic when the *real* sexists assholes reveal themselves to brazenly...and yet are too misogynistic to even realize what a vile thing you have said.

And again, Thucy, I do NOT mean this as an attack on your personally --- I am at peace with you, my friend --- but I seriously do wish you ALL would take a second and look at what a bunch of fucking douchebags you all are when you suggest women are not CAPABLE of hanging out around here because they couldn't stand up to the men....as opposed to the idea that women do not come here/hang out here because women simply are not into gaming and debating as much as men.

Further, the notion that "the internet" as a whole is hostile to women is simply a statement that you male internet trolls never go to any of the places on the internet that ARE women dominated....probably because their interests tend to not intersect with yours.

...

Stop being such a bunch of sexist pigs.

It's not sexist to ask people to be sensitive. What's sexist is to tell women it's not okay to be sensitive, even if that's how they feel, because they should be able to "stand up for themselves." That's second-wave "act like men" feminism. We've grown past that now. In 2014 you can be as manly or womanly as you want and it's not an object of shame. The trick is getting this forum up to date into 2014.

"It's not sexist to ask people to be sensitive"
I never said that. Please reread what I wrote.

It IS sexist to suggest that men are capable of hanging around this web site with what you see here, and then suggest that women are too soft/weak/sensitive to be able to handle it. You are saying the men can slug it out, handle the insults, and persist, while the women crumble and slink away, because they are too weak/sensitive/whatever to handle it. What you are saying is blatantly sexist, my friend.

And your assertion that this forum is not up to date to 2014 is as narrow minded, ridiculous and foolish as Obama wagging his finger at Putin and saying that in the 21st century countries don't act like...<Shut the fuck up, Obama, I'll take over the Ukraine if I damned well want to...>

The juvenile belief that the date on a calendar somehow changes the behavior of humanity is laughable, at best.

Please don't take that personally, or as an insult. I totally believe your heart is in the right place when you say these things. I just also believe that, either because you live in a sheltered world (I don't think you do), or because you have buried yourself in *unrealistic* idealism that you reject *normal* human behavior, you are just setting yourself up for great disappointment.

More to the point, though, you are insulting to women. I think that you tend to go around thinking that all women are miserable and oppressed, etc etc etc....and I call bullshit. I know just as many happy/fulfilled men as I do women, and unhappy/unfulfilled men as I do women. I.e. happiness/fulfillment is not attached to gender; rather it is attached to what you do with your life.

Most people do not spend every waking moment of their day seeking out who has offended them so they can feel justified in being outraged, claiming that they are oppressed, etc...

I wish I could invite you my office, Thucy, because you would enter a highly professional, highly paid professional workplace that represents all genders and creeds, with people from around the globe, all working in harmony towards a common goal. Not once have I seen someone treated differently because of their gender or skin color. The team I am on is headed by an Chinese woman. The leaders beneath here are a Japanese woman, an Indian man, a Canadian man, and a crazy an American man. The team as a whole is probably about 40% women, and less than 50% white.

It is so tiresome to have to constantly listen to agenda driven idealogues with *very limited* experience in the world constantly trying to tell us what a horrible white-male dominated society we live in. Get over it, man.

This is so stupid. The far-right clowns around claiming they're the champions of women because they promote and defend the opinions of women who happily uphold gender inequality, so that makes them "so open minded", while we evil leftists *insist* that women must actually think they're equal human beings, so look how bad we are. It's a dumb trick to twist everything and make yourselves out to be "feminists" when you've spent the last 5-6 years, most of you, making asses of yourself when it comes to your opinion of women.