I wasn't discussing Americans at all krellin; just the military operations taking place in Ukraine right now...

"this is unacceptable behaviour for an acting government. "

So. So what? “Unnaceptable behavior” What the fuck does that mean? We live in a world ruled by the use of force, not pansy-ass cry-babies bitching about ‘right and wrong’. Up until YOU are willing to die for your sacred principle…you need to shut the fuck up.

"I wasn't discussing Americans at all krellin; just the military operations taking place in Ukraine right now... "

What about them - none of our business. You have no place discussing them unless you are willing to do something about it. Nobody is impressed with Obama wagging his finger and shaking his fist and calling Purin names like some street-thug acting tough. Nobody is impressed with American Intellectualism on how others should and should not behave. If you are "discussing it", you might as well be playing with a butt-plug for all the difference it will make...up until the piont where you are willing to spill your own blood to support your precious arguments.

Krellin is basically saying that the sword is mightier than the pen. It's certainly one opinion. He's taking it even further though and saying you shouldn't speak at all unless you have a submachine gun in hand. Noted.

JECE- those are Russian plants, not protestors.

(not that reputable, this one)
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russian-paramilitary-leaders-in-eastern-ukraine-caught-on-tape-communicating-with-moscow-343644.html
(this one is, though)
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/russian-forces-spotted-on-ground-in-eastern-ukraine-bloomberg-2014-04-15

The protestors in Kiev shut down government centers and fought police, yes. Then why are these "protestors" seizing military airports, road junctions, and other strategic assets?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27041750

Unless you also believe all the armed gunmen in Crimea were actually Crimeans. In that case, I'm afraid you're beyond help.

krellin - lets just play some hypotheticals here. You say Ukraine isn't worth shedding blood, and that we shouldn't even pretend to care about Ukraine if we're not willing to shed blood over it. That is a perfectly reasonable line to take. My question for you is - what are you willing to have blood shed over?

"Vital national interests" - the supply of goods and raw materials that keep our nation running - because without those good, our quality of life diminishes, and American lives become endangered when we don't have the fuel/energy to run our economy. There is no vital US interest in the Ukraine. Sorry. And if Obama would get the fuck out of the way, there wouldn't be many vital interests in the Middle East, either...

"Krellin is basically saying that the sword is mightier than the pen. It's certainly one opinion."

Not an opinion. It's a *demonstrated fact*. Obama's empty words have no meaning. the only time words have meaning is when they are backed by the *legitimate* threat of the use of force. Obama has ruined that card.

Lol, yeah words and ideas are meaningless..." he typed on his device invented in 2008

Also wow if that's what you think war is worth being fought for. The economy.

Money money money kiddos! Sure would hate to have to cut down on those all-American road trips and mall visits!

Christ

Does keeping allies fall under vital national interests? Poland is calling for greater intervention.

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKBREA3E0RA20140415?irpc=932

If we don't respond to land grabs here, what will Japan, Taiwan and our Asian allies conclude from this situation? That if China makes a move, we'll let them.

Interesting that gold finger seems to understand what's at stake: no less than the norm against annexation which up till now had basically been enforced via the expectation of US military dominance.

Now this is being thrown up into doubt: will we perhaps enter a new age of international relations where conquest again becomes the order of the day? That would be the final nail in the coffin of the short lived Pax Americana

All it will take is for one other big country other than Russia to flout postwar norms for them to basically be dead. Rogue state won't mean anything anymore and the much talked about but little seen 'multipolar' world will become a difficult reality. Hopefully peace can be sustained in such an unstable environment. Who knows

It's almost risible if it weren't so depressing that krellin actually thinks US interests (and indeed international interests) are not at stake in Ukraine right now.

Well, if we ever do get to said multipolar world, South Asia is going to be on the shortlist of instigators. Especially if Modi wins the election.

Right. Which is terrifying . That's my entire point

And krellin - if you think US business interests aren't threatened by this, then you're dead wrong. I've been talking with all my professors about this - the hippie International Relations ones, my Economics ones, and my business ones - they are all scared about what this means for the world. From a geopolitical viewpoint, a global growth viewpoint (this shit is going to send Europe into its 3rd recession in 6 years), and a business interest viewpoint what Russia is doing is changing the game fundamentally.

krellin: No, that is not the world we live in. And yes, I am willing to die for a just cause you pinko-commie-faggot-hippie-liberal-Democrat-yodeler. And as a matter of fact, diplomacy (if not 'the pen') is in fact mightier than the sword. You must be pretty bad at this game, aren't you – oh, wait, we already know you are.

goldfinger0303: I don't have time to look at your URL's now, but we're not just talking about 'protestors'. We're talking about Russophone Ukranian policemen, citizens and members of the Ukranian armed forces. Just look at how differently these heavily armed people are dressed. Compare that with the uniformly (no pun intended) dressed commandos without identification that took action in the Crimea. See how they wave flags of the Party of Regions and the Communist Party. This is defnitely home-grown.

Honestly I think its embarrassing that NATO is supporting the current government of Kyiv. Given is failure to give to recognize the people of eastern ukraine's right to self determination

Haaa ha ha ha!! Thucy is stupdi enough to think wars are fought for principle!!! Ask the Rawandans, moron...or the Syrians. Get the fuck out of here, you ignorant putz.

"Poland is calling for greater intervention."

Obama already *fucked* Poland years ago when he caved to Putin and withdrew missile defense from Poland, retard.

Nobody has yet answered why AMERICAN blood should be on the line for a EUROPEAN problem. what's the matter, German, french, English bullets don't fly anymore? Poland has a pretty ducking decent army too. But no....nobody can fight until they can blame the war on the hated Americans. fuck that.

Good lord...

Oh, you mean the policemen who were held at gunpoint by armed militias?

Also, every report I have seen shows that these people are heavily armed and wearing unmarked combat fatigues.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303887804579502892789915218?mg=reno64-wsj

"And as a matter of fact, diplomacy (if not 'the pen') is in fact mightier than the sword"

Then why do you want to spill your blood? Just talk Putin down, you paradoxical jackass.

Awesome...I'm not the resident pinko commie Democrat. lol

PREDICTION: The US doesn’t intervene militarily, and US life goes on as is, and worthless libtards continue to get government hand-outs. <yawn>

check back in 4 to 6 weeks after Russia is done in the Ukraine, you blood-thirsty war mongers.

Poland's army is absolutely dwarfed by the Russian military, krellin. What the hell are you talking about.

And krellin, you really are in your own little world, aren't you? We are bound by treaty to join any war Germany, France, etc are involved in. Secondly, if you want it spelled out in $$ the EU is the biggest source of capital, investment and economic activity in the world. Its larger than the US in GDP, in terms of the market cap of its stock exchanges, etc. A significant portion of profit from most US companies comes from Europe. If Europe goes to war, the world goes into recession.

I'll support the US intervening in the Ukraine/Europe issues the day every privileged white kid on WebDiplomacy under the age of 26 signs up to join the military and puts *their* blood where their mouth is. It's easy to support some hypothetical shit-fest in Europe when you are playing with the lives of the overly-minority and poor population of the military. Let's see some of you log off of Webdip and man the fuck up.

goldie - Germany and France aren't involved, dumbfuck. germany is ready to **appease** Putin as long as Putin keeps the oil flowing. Good lord...do I have to spell it out for you?

Europe's feigned outrage is about as valid as your feigned outrage...all talk and bluster until it coes time to man up. as long as Putin gives them oil - which he will, because he needs the $$$$...the Putin can do whatever he wants in the Ukraine. Easy peasy lemon squeazy. Mark my words.