Oh yea, I liked Newsroom man, what do you feel sucks about it? Perhaps the overemphasis on Mac and Will's relationship and some other stuff, but otherwise, pretty good I think. Not top notch, but pretty good.

Mac is apparently a reporter that was in war zones, and was truly incredibly out there, yet she breaks down at everything? In fact, I think Lisa is the only female character with anything approaching normal human emotions.

The relationship is also overblown and annoying (also the Sloan/Don/Maggie/Lisa/Jim/whoever-else-happens-to-be-in-the-office-because-why-the-hell-not thing), and it's just all so unnecessary in a show that hits its targets time and time again, notably the opening monologue and the mock debate thing.

It's worth noting that because I'm in the UK I don't have regular access, so I'm only 1 season in. Maybe it gets better. But it just annoys me that it does so many stupid and unnecessary things on its way to making some pretty good points about mainstream media in the USA.

I have to agree with you, some parts of the show are indeed pretty cheesy. And like you say, they are pretty unnecessary, but because it is also a show with at least some character development, good acting and writing, I can get over it more easily.

I've seen season 2, but don't really remember season 1 all that much. Overall if I had to guess, I do think season 2 was better though. Albeit that I remember getting annoyed by the geeky indian guy, why has there always to be a geek and why can they never act?! And Sloan is a bit 2-dimensional as well with these half-smart remarks, but christ, at least she has the looks...

Back during the 1970s I'd watch the really bad ones since I knew they would be cancelled after a few episodes. There was no straight to DVD to make some money by including any episodes that never aired like with Firefly. Also the good shows would air as reruns during the summer if I missed anything that was on opposite a bad show.

Now it's just the otherway around right? If a show is good you better watch it because it'll get canceled because the general public doesn't get it. And if it is real shitty, you know they will eat it up and you get a lot of seasons.

I remember my dad telling me about this great show Caligula from 70's or 80's, we finally got it on DVD sometime and we were both surprised at how much it had deteriorated, but still I\d probably rather watch it then the junk I am watching currently...

Well, if you don't want "unbelievable" then you best not look towards any fiction for entertainment cause even Shakespeare wrote the "unbelievable" - just look at A Midsummer Night's Dream.

You really should catch the last two seasons of Covert Affairs though. Reasonably realistic spy craft and good acting shot on location throughout Europe, the Middle East, the US, etc.

Caligula was a Penthouse softcore porn movie about the Roman Emperor. Are you sure you watched that with your dad?

I feel like there is a difference between unbelievable in the sense that it's just over-the-top incoherent nonsense. Stands far apart from unbelievable in mesmerizing quality fiction. I want a story to be believable so that I can attach myself to it, even if it might be unbelievable. I guess what I really mean, is that something has depth. And that the main character doesn't just have top notch access to everything or that there is a secret agency that somehow has access to everything or whatever.

This is what I watched: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080491/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Hmm, no nevermind that wasn't what I watched, you were right I was confused. The series I was thinking of was I, Claudius. Lol

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074006/

Judging by the synopsis covert affairs isn't going to be my thing, despite the fact I really love spycraft. It's just not believable and what will probably be left is some shell for a standard formula with the cheeky girl that saves the day has her emotional problems and is amazing at everything she needs to do to save the day. And she won't die no matter what.

Actually, no. It is much more realistic in the spycraft and Annie is hardly 007. She males mistakes and is human in every respect. This last season was the best yet with Annie being forced to go dark and fake her death to uncover the truth about a leal in the CIA ranks.

I dunno, blond attractive chicks hardly make for good spies. You mostly want to be inconspicuous.. But tell me this then, what is the overall mood of the series? Lighthearted, grim, serious, neutral?

I think the main problem I have with these shows is that it mostly revolves around one person (understandable) and that, that one person is involved in pretty much everything, which quickly makes things unrealistic. If you want to focus on one person, and that person is a spy, then accept that real spies do not have a spectacular life. They do not go from one mission to another, etc. They develop sources and this can take months, they might do surveillance for weeks. They talk, talk and talk some more. So depict that, let us see all the facets of her life and her mental state and whatnot. I am not interested in seeing a fake romanticized 13 out of a dozen story about a spy who happens to be young female and attractive.

I rather see a mediocre looking woman in her thirties watching a subject for an entire episode and hearing her thought process, what she is thinking and feeling, without knowing who the subject is or why she is following him. So that I get the sensation that I might be watching something that could actually come somewhat close to the real thing, and I get to see depth in a character besides the few quirky personality traits that are usually handed out to these characters. I bet that in one of these seasons she had boyfriend troubles, probably more then once and it was probably something standard I can't tell him what I do or whatever. And besides that she might have some family and a trust worthy friend with whom she can talk, though perhaps not about her work, so the friend is an outsider, blabla. All so standard and non-artistic..

Though I must say I begin to feel more and more like a jerk as I rant on about a series I haven't even bothered watching yet and am still bashing it without proper knowledge lol. Ah well, I will keep it in mind, perhaps I will watch it sometime and be happily surprised.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8834736/Suspected-Russian-spy-admits-affair-with-Lib-Dem-MP-Mike-Hancock.html

Well, when Annie goes dark, she dies her hair and dresses down to be something entirely different. But even in the first few seasons, she used her looks as an asset.

Sure it happens, but first of all she looks way less attractive, and second of all, that would be her life, spending time with the old fart while trying to get as much information as possible. She wouldn't be flying around the world doing this and that putting her life in danger every week etc. I would respect a series that was just about a female spy acting as a honey-trap and how she goes about it, the pressure from her superiors, the distrust, her future, her partner, all that. But don't make it all glamorous and stuff.

No doubt you have female spies using there looks as an asset, but they wouldn't be super-human or lack human traits, or look glamorous even if they are in some miserable situation.

And it is generally a very serious and somewhat dark series. Nothing humorous about it. If you want humor and blondes, watch Big Bang Theory.

And it does *not* male a spy's life look glamorous. This isn't James Bond. Quit judging ot from pictures and an IMDB synopsis and watch a couple episodes.

Alright, I might give this series a go at some point, but pictures like these http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2804734464/tt3058724?ref_=tt_ov_i give me so many reasons to doubt a series..

You need to see the pilot of Covert Affairs to understand that Annie was put into the field to flush out a rogue agent. While most of the show is realistic, the mission choices are there to make the show interesting.

The show is done for humor. Like having a blind former agent having his friends point out the hot women in the bar to pick up. Not because he can see her, but because he can hear the jealous reactions from the other guys that didn't get her. Or the reason his girlfriend gives for breaking up is that he doesn't drive a hot car.

I agree with tendmote, Don't watch it.
Do something else, watch a DVD, read a book, play WebDip, etc.
When Her Indoors was alive, well, I'd find something enjoyable to do with her.
These days I look at the TV guide, find the one, maybe two programmes that interest me & ignore the rubbish. There's more free to air TV available than in the past, but it seems to me that there's less and less that I am interested in watching, so I do not watch stuff that does not interest me.

Lopt - I think you'd appreciate Game of Thrones. The mood changes throughout the season. It never focuses on a single character, and is fairly realistic (for a fantasy).
Generally, just stick with HBO and you'll be fine. Though I would recommend White Collar.

I've watched Game of Thrones yea, it is a series I like fairly well. Though I think second season was a little bit more generic. And I agree, HBO has some of the best series out there, with hopefully Netflix bringing some more quality as well, House of Cards was really good imo.

I've downloaded Dracula and after I'm done watching that I probably try Covert Affairs, even thoughMM is right, but yea... Why would you recommend White Collar though? From what I know about it, it is exactly industry standard format. You get to see some unrealistic agency cooperating with a high value target with all the same dynamics that are in every show...

@Lopt - You keep changing the "formula" first there was emo crap and, well, basically a description of CSI and, to a degree, Blacklist, but now the whole emotion and chick thing is removed form your formula. Why not lay out a formula you would like (beyond story arcs that cross episodes, which many have, including Blacklist) and we can use ti to analyze shows and recommend them to you.

@Randomizer - I would say the "humor" in Covert Affairs is subtle and realistic and not the reason the show is done ("done for" means the reason for the show). The humor is just an added dimension. Psych is done for the humor, Covert Affairs happens to have some subtle humor in it.

Well, the 'formula' as I see it revolves around this:

- 1 Paternal figure overlooking the whole team giving guidance
- 1 Main character, either a cool chick or a cool guy, who is always a smart-ass
- 1 One main partner to the main character, there is always some lighthearted rivalry between these two persons. He is usually of the opposite sex and also somewhat cool, but not as cool as the main character
- One obligatory geeky guy who is always a superhero in his own way and can do anything he like on computers including, but not up-to, getting access to top secret information which would realistically be far out of his reach.
- The antagonist, a character that is an outsider and comes into play to provide a context in which a team operates. He is usually bad in some way, but as the show goes on you see he is really a good guy, just with his own way of doing things..
- Some other bureau person that hardly comes into play, but provides some external oversight over the team.
- Every episode is a neat rounded-up affair in which a bad guy gets punished
- There is some overlaying story arc throughout the season usually about the personal affairs of one of the more important characters, usually fairly uninteresting.

I think that is pretty much the formula I am talking about, add to that very bad plot holes and acting that can make a baby cry and you've got about more then a dozen of them.

What I would like to see:

- No plot holes, make it believable (to clarify, I would say Game of Thrones is believable, as I can follow the motives and reasons for people to do certain things)
- No superheroes with superficial acting (superheroes are fine, but if you gonna make them smart-ass, coolheaded, one-dimensional shit then I don't have to see them, give them some real human emotions and don\t let every show revolve about OH superhero did it AGAIN!)
- Am interesting story, I don't have to see the same story again and again only with the names and characters changed. If you gonna catch a bad guy to establish character, fine, lets get it over with, but one time is enough thank you.
- Don't act like I'm twelve years old, if you want to explain something to your viewers then don't just let the characters say it blankly into open air, but explain it to me throughout the story or trough there actions, or perhaps if I am really interested I will google it. I don't want to hear a geek say "The X3FagST, is a super quick radiant water cooled processor, with this we can accces the.... etc. blablab" What the fuck do I care, is your story about that? How you have to retrieve or get some device so you can do this or that and save the day? Borrrinnggg.
- Character depth, the thing I really like about Boardwalk Empire is that every character is multi-faceted, they don't simply fulfill there roles, they are not simply morally wrong or right, they are multiple things and in-between. Every character has it's own history, it's own personality and that personality goes beyond the obvious.

But most of all I just want to see a good story with good acting.

Well, White Collar does *not* follow the formula. There is no "father figure". There is a smart ass main character, but it actually has two mains who are the partners and are of the same sex (and no, there is no sexual tensions between them). No geeky guy/computer nerd either. In fact, most of it doesn't follow that formula.

Let's review what is missing:

No father figure
No sexual tension opposite sex partner (both partners are actually main characters)
No nerd
Antagonists are multiple (one for the episode and one for the season typically) and are actually bad - no good in his own way bullshit.
Other bureau partners do exist (and a few non-bureau allies), but are actually key characters (it's an ensemble cast).

Things that do fit your formula (but I don't view them as bad):

There is a hero (two actually) and both are a bit of smartass in their own way as one is an FBI agent and the other is Criminal Informant with the CI always trying to pull something over on the Fed and the Fed always suspicious of the motives of the CI.

The episodes usually round up their story lines neatly, but not always.
Their is usually a season long and sometimes cross season story arc, but it is not "uninteresting* by any means. If anything, it is what makes the show so interesting.

Onto the rest of your list
"No plot holes" - Every show is going to have some kind of plot hole. Fiction does. Shakespeare had them, Conan-Doyle had them, Fleming, had them, Charteris had them... There will always be something you can find. The key is suspension of disbelief.

No superheroes with superficial acting - Shows like this can be found, but it depends on what you consider superhero and what you consider superficial versus good acting.

Interesting story - Again an issue of personal taste and, when you are bored (as you claim to be), you are likely to find everything you watch boring. Your own mood will taint your perspective on a show or movie.

- Acknowledge you have a brain _) I agree, but remember, not everyone does. This site has a generally much higher IQ (even krellin and Putin and Obi) than the general populace and TV and movies are made for the masses which *don't* have above average IQs (or that would be the new average).

Character depth - You need to watch more than an episode or two. Hell, even a movie 2.5 hours long doesn't get the depth from the characters in the first 30 minutes. How can a TV show do that in one 42 minute episode?

I will recommend "Almost Human" to you. Two main characters - A cop and a cybernetic partner. The cop has issues (and depth) due to losing a partner because a previous cybernetic cop had deemed his partners life not a priority (said he would die anyhow and walked away). The new "partner" is actually an older deactivated model when they had tried to give cyborgs a semblance of human emotion.

It does, unfortunately, have a superior position (the requisite Captain/Chief) but Karl Urban (came out of the movies and decided to take on network TV) as the lead detective is good (although he can chew on the scenery at times) but his intensity as countered by Michael Ealy's cybernetic partner who plays it very low key and almost Zen like. But then , I liked Ealy across from Warren Cole in USA's short-lived "Common Law". (One of those actual good shows that, like all truly intelligent ones, only got one season).

You make some good points, though, I just woke up and I am sure I can change my set of rules to be more general yet still descriptive of a large chunk of series. But that's not the point, maybe I should give White Collar more credit, I just read the premise a few years back and though to myself... not again. Though I did actually like Suites, which follows sort of the same formula (same formula as in, modern series), and the characters are fairly typical, yet the overall show was not bad.

Of course there will be plot holes, but as you say, suspension of disbelief and this suspension is really helped with good acting and a good engaging story.

I guess what I am looking for besides good acting, good production values, is a show that can give me something new. A new experience, attachment, emotions. What triggers these things will be different for everybody, but I'd find it hard to imagine people actually crying at the series currently showing, when the stories and acting are that bad...

And you might say, everything has been told already, sure it has, the main motives are always the same old. But this is were it comes to style. And to create an attractable style to me, a story has first of all get of the main high-way and stereotypes and into the unexplored woods.

A cop who has experienced a great loss.. (how original) the lone cop grieving. He I imagine has now developed some sort of antipathy towards cyborgs (I'd imagine anyway), but he accepts them, as that they have a part in the world he lives in and perhaps he struggles with there limitations, he can deal with it. Then he gets partnered to another model that shows him there is more to cyborgs then he would have originally thought after the incident.. (again how original).

So basically, guy lives in a world, shit happens, guy is grieving, guy begins to question certain parts of the world. Guy encounters a new person who slowly changes the way he views things and he loses some of his bitterness... That is how I'd imagine the main story and I do not feel like it is very original, I'd might even say it's a bit cheesy. I'd might be off the mark here, but that is what you are telling suggests to me.

Also regarding character depth, it can be done in 1 or 2 episodes, movies do it after all. But the great things about series is you have much more time to do it, so I agree, you should watch more then 1/2 episodes. But sometimes you know it's just not gonna happen. I don't know if you have seen Boardwalk Empire, or Mad Men, but the way they do it, well, there is a riptide between how they do it and how your run-off-the-mill series does it.

I don't get Showtime or HBO, so only when those series show up on Amazon Prime do I catch them. That's how I caught the 4th season of Torchwood as it was a BBC and Showtime production.

Your high level of Almost Human is accurate, but the show has interest because the lead is partnered initially to s state of the art cybercop who is just like the one get his partner killed and his leg blown off (which is replaced with a cybernetic one, leading to some additional angst). He promptly throws that one out of a car and udner a truck (literally, it gets crushed under a semi) and so he gets partnered with an obsolete model that was mothballed and scheduled for termination because the line was thought to be "insane" (much like HAL in 2001).

It really is the acting that makes this better. Not that Karl Urban is any great actor, but Michael Ealy is talented. Also, the Captain is Lili Taylor who is also a talented actress with more movies than TV to her credit.

As I was cycling trough a storm, freezing rain drops splashing in my face with brute force, I thought about your other post.

Even though the average person might have a lower IQ then the people on this site, I don't see this as a reason d'etre for bad series. They are made for those people yes, but intellect is fluid, it can increase or decrease at will. And so are cultural standards. We should not lower ourselves to the standard of the masses in order to enjoy some entertainment, instead the masses should elevate themselves to higher standards by watching better quality entertainment.
This might sound snobbish, but I don't think it is. I haven't read Shakespeare, but I wish I had, or that it would be more accessible to me. Because from what I hear, the stories portray beautiful scenes of heroism, ruination, doom and decline. Only hearing about the premise of these stories gives me pleasure. Let alone actually experiencing them. So I wish, series to be of a higher standard, even if they go beyond my level of understanding, because it will make me richer.

And this is were I really blame all the directors and actors and such, there is absolutely no visible aspiration to achieve greatness, to stretch out beyond the dull safety of the known. They are all catering to a public they know will swallow there crap like if it were... They lower themselves and there public even further with this practice and that is what I really can't stand about these crap series.

I'm not saying everything should be doom and such, you can easily make lighthearted fun series, but still have quality in them. I think Arrested Development did that actually quite well. But for cripe sake, stop this generic bullshit without artistic inspiration following the same set of rules again and again...

And then I was going to say something else, but I forgot what... Oh yeah, what I really think is a very representative sign of the major artistic sell-out that is currently occurring are the 'product placement- scenes'. I'm not unfamiliar with basic economics, I understand you want to make money, but how can you take your own product even serious when you decide to butcher it simply to get some money? You might as well not make the whole thing. And when I say unbelievable, I mean all the new Mercedes every main character and ... knows who is driving.. even if it absolutely doesn't make sense. They shine like they have been polished a minute earlier before a chase commences..

I would urge every series maker to take himself serious and then the public will as well and eventually the public will develop more of a cultural taste and artists can once again rise to the top. Instead of how it is right now, good series get canceled because there are too few viewers and bad series run because the people eat it like candy. While by watching these shit series lowering there intellect and culture, thus urging for even worse series so that they can keep up with it, it's a vicious circle!