@ Draugnar: "By the way Jamie, I didn't do anything. The President I didn't elect ordered the military I am no longer a member of to commit a crime. But I didn't do it. My country did. so please, next tame say "What your government/president/country did is *not* acceptable and don't put the onus on the individuals who may or may not have even voted for the idiot in the White House."

But I used the term "you" in response to your own use of the term "we", Draugnar. Specifically when you said:

"Philosophically, the first is acceptable and no different than what WE did." (my emphasis)

@ SYnapse: "Criminals need to be held accountable through the law, not through warfare."

This.

What law?

In the case of Anas al-Liby, I've already pointed out that the Libyan government has publicly stated they would have wanted to put him on trial in Libya. So, Libyan law, I guess. Presumably plotting to blow up embassies is against their laws too.

I sincerely apologize for interrupting this circle jerk but let's talk in reality not fantasy here.

The options were not to put liby on trial (or go through legal channels) in Libya or to capture him.

The options were to let him live freely or capture him

Whether us actions are right or wrong the Libyans do not have the ability to capture or try a prominent militia operative.

If your solution is to obey intl law and let him live free so be it

But don't insult your own intelligence by acting if putting this guy on trial was only a matter of asking for it.

"In the case of Anas al-Liby, I've already pointed out that the Libyan government has publicly stated they would have wanted to put him on trial in Libya. So, Libyan law, I guess. Presumably plotting to blow up embassies is against their laws too."


They mentioned his address on the floor of the UN, what exactly was stopping them? They publicly stated they wanted to try him after be was already captured, funny how that works. If they did earlier say that, please show me where.

@ Santa: Please demonstrate that the US had tried any other option before ordering a commando raid.

If he's a Libyan citizen, there's no contest here.

Oh, and, for the record:

@ Santa: "If your solution is to obey intl law and let him live free so be it"

Yes, so be it. I would rather see him arrested and put on trial legally, in Libya, but failing that I'd rather see him remain at large in Libya than see the US blatantly violate international law by entering a sovereign state and kidnapping one of its citizens without the authorisation or involvement of that state's government.

The US government, and others, are far too quick to use hysteria about terrorism to justify their own illegal behaviour.

@Jamie - point and match. I said it first and so the you was appropriate. My apologies for getting my undies twisted in a bunch.

No worries Draug.

Ok good, you are entitled, but don't come in here pretending there were legal alternatives, because as this article discusses in the case of benghaxi assailants, that is not the case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/world/africa/libya-thwarts-arrests-in-benghazi-attack.html?_r=0

"The US government, and others, are far too quick to use hysteria about terrorism to justify their own illegal behaviour." - QFT and +1 already.

And for our republican friends tearing their shirts in mourning over our activist president, republicans in congress specifically asked for Obama to go in and capture Benghazi attackers.

Santa - I say remove them as well. Sorry, but breaking international law is breaking the law, political standing matters not to me. Had Bush done it, I would be calling for the same removal from office.

Oh, so all you needed was a breach of international law to advocate impeaching bush. Good thing he wouldn't stand for such a thing…

*All* I needed? I needed a breach of *any* law. None happened though. He had congressional approval for Afghanistan *and* Iraq (and I never supported Iraq. It was none of our business to get involved there) and Congress passed the Patriot Act, unfortunately. Same goes with Obama. As much as I hate the ACA, congress passed it and SCOTUS allowed it to stand after the lawyers put a spin on the punishing people who don't have insurance thing being a tax, not a penalty/crime.

But now, Obama has broken the law. Time for impeachment.

George bush never breached international law. You heard it here folks

Santa, I would rather this man go free than what happened. In short, I would rather 10 guilty men be at large than 1 innocent get killed/tortured.

I might even be with you guys. What I am saying is portray the situation as it actually is. Tripoli is not New York or Moscow or Beijing . Currently the government is not able to carry out the law and bring such individuals to justice. Don't pretend that they are to misrepresent the us position situation.

*misrepresent the situation.

For those who are vehemently defending the sovereignty of a nation, can I pose you a question?

What if the commandos were wearing UN gear and executing a warrant from the ICC?

And by that I mean, would you feel differently about it than you do with the US doing it? Would that raid be justified?

If the nation in question doesn't approve of it, it shouldn't happen. If the nation in question doesn't approve, though, the United States and/or United Nations/ICC are more than able to make a declaration of war to remove the target.

I wonder what affect the raid had on Somalia's tourist industry? The fact that the Seal raid was repulsed by heavier than anticipated gunfire will surely entice an increase in tourism according to Putin.

I bless the raids down in Africa.

Only if the nation is a member of the UN, in which case it binds itself voluntarily.

"What if the commandos were wearing UN gear and executing a warrant from the ICC?"

Much like what bo_sox said, only in addition, if the nation in question is part of the UN, they should welcome UN forces taking the person and their own troops should be part of that force, even if just one "commando" riding along as an advisor.

@Santa - Thanks! Now I have the fucking song running through my head. :-)

And before you say it, it is almost 5 and I am off work today any how as I was in the hospital Friday afternoon and have a doctor's note to not return to work until Wednesday while my leg heals. Keeping it propped up and doing a little work here and there for the next couple of days. I'll probably only bill about 6-8 hours over both days.