Gay parents are unnatural parents. Therefore, they will produce unnatural kids.

'Natural parents' is a meaningless descriptive. Therefore, they will produce ethereal kids.

The problem is that the Liberal/Left has this incredibly *vulgar* habit of co-opting our language and changing long-held truths for lies.

A Parent, universally, used to be understood *by all* to be the Man and Woman that were the biological producers of a child.

In the case of adoptions, it was "the adoptive parents", etc.

Now it...a parent can be damned near anything you want it to be...a threesome of caretakers if you live in California...

I make this statement not to judge what a parent is (or maybe I am), but to simpyl point out that these discussion become ridiculous because with the ever-changing definitions of words by Liberals, one often doesn't know exactly what he is arguing...but the Liberals keep on trying to take things that are *abnormal*, and trying to normalize them, such as "gay parents". Until *very* recently this was an abnormal concept...so the way you "mainstream" a radical/abnormal idea is to co-opt the language...start caling your deviancy by the same terminology of main-stream, traditional, acceptable behavior and once you get your oponents to start using your re-defined terminology, you've won the battle, because the ignorant masses - thoughtless ignorant masses - will just go along with it.

"What? You are saying gay parents can't be as good? Well, they're parents, aren't they? Who are you to say they are bad parents?"

They're bad parents because they ARE NOT PARENTS -- plural...parentS...because parentS *forever* until very, very recentyl in history is a MAN and a WOMAN...

But you steal the language, redefine it and feed it to the thoughtless ignorant masses and suddenly anyone standing on long-held common-sense principles is seen as a villian.

The Libs are excellent at their cultural warfare...too bad their destroyign the nation from within....

krellin, if every child needs to have parents that represent the world's population, are you suggesting that every child needs to have a black and an asian parent, of which one is a muslim and the other a hindu?


Sure, gay parents aren't an ideal situation. But when is life ever an ideal situation?

Ofcourse, when a couple wants to adopt a baby, the sexual preference of the parents should be one of the variables that are taken into account. But it should not be the variable which determinate everything. There are many variables that should be taken into account.

Mayon - I never said every child *needs* to have parents that fit some objective...I'm saying that for thousands of years that what everyone has understood parents to be.

If two gay people can be parents, why not three or four people all legally declared as parents? If we are going to throw normal structures out the window because someone *wants* something (selfish reasoning, not necessarily in the interest of the child, by the way..) then why not *really* expand the definition of "parent".

Intersting that you note "gay parents may not be ideal". So you admit it's less than ideal. Goody for you... you have the rare quality of honesty.

I will also say that I don't believe you will find anywhere where I have said gays should *not* be parents. Some of them will make wonderful parents, and far better parents than many man/woman parents, or single-parent situations, etc.

But lets not pretend that even the best gay parents are in anyway eqaul to or superior to the best man/woman parents...and that's just common sense.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GAY PARENTS.

I agree with krellin here.
If we break the "normal parents" custom, why don't we extended it further until accepting polygamy and incestuous relationship while at it?

polygamy is acceptable. Incest is not for the reasons of biology and fucking up the genetic makeup of any natural born kids.

I've argued polygamy on here....once you destroy the "traditional" definitions of relationships in order to accommodate the *wants* of other groups (not needs...they are *not* needs...) then you need to offer the same courtesy to other "deviant" groups.

The problem with incest is of course genetic - so I can't support you there.

But our arbitrary modern "age of consent" is a little ridiculous. Were society to openly accept that sex at the earliest possible age were "normal", then it would be so, and kids would not be traumatized. We need to stop applying our overbearing morality on what could be valuable relationships...train them while they are young, right?

It's less than ideal, yes. So is a divorced parent. Or a parent who only has an average income.

Ideal implies that you compare a situation to the perfect situation. Unfortunately, a perfect situation doesn't exist. A perfect situation would probably be a white young heterosexual couple, rich, with only a part-time job, love their children unconditionally, live in a suburban neighborhood, etc.

If we would only let children live in an ideal situation, no one would have children. So we need to allow people to deviate from the ideal situation.

Personally I find the sexual preference of the parents not a very important deviation. I don't see how it would have any direct negative effects on a child, which cannot be overcome.

I agree with Krellin.

The "traditional" family is only a few hundred years old (much like the "traditional" marriage, which is less than two centuries old). For most of human history, child-rearing didn't look anything like it does now. This doesn't have anything to do with rather gay parents are better or worse than straight ones, but let's don't pretend it has something to do with some inherent, long-standing tradition of what the best family looks like.

"The "traditional" family is only a few hundred years old"

SO IS INDOOR plumbing...but I don't see you lobbying for everyone to shit in the woods...

Actually, depending on who you were, indoor plumbing has been available at various times to various groups, starting with the Roman Republic (there may be earlier ones I'm not aware of). Considerably longer than a few hundred years at any rate.

I bet there are people who do argue for shitting in the woods...

Later today There will be a little girl or boy born to be the king or queen of Great Britain and the realms. He or she will benefit from all the money and status that comes with having a prince and duchess as parents. I'm happy for them. However, just because this little child has the 'ideal' parents doesn't mean that my parents are not worthy to have me or that I'm not worthy to have my children or that my children aren't worthy to have their children etc etc. it seems to me to be completely wrong to put parents into some kind of hierarchy - royals are best, then nobles, then clever white people, then wealthy white people, then wealthy black etc etc all the way down to poor black lesbians. Anyone who becomes a parent needs support and not devaluing, sure most parents will face difficulties and gay people may experience greater difficulties than some others, but they can be just as good as parents as you and I (or William and Kate)

The house I grew up in had indoor plumbing by the time we moved in, but still had and outhouse above the cistern at the end of the 25-30' stone walk from when it was first built in 1834.

Baths were done

Apparently it's a boy.

I heard Kate is going from the delivery room to the OR. The Queen has requested she get an immediate sex change., having apparently recently read this thread and realizing that the new Prince would be much better off raised by a pair of pole smokers instead of a loving Male/Female couple.

Ahhhh...too bad....She was pretty hot in a bikini...

I hope little Tarquin doesn't end up sleeping around like his common whore of a grand-mother

Hyperion: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ALL CAPS

Lol Krellin

As you know my point wasn't that gay parents are better, only that if the 'ideal' parents are prince and princesses, then it doesn't make the rest of us (gay or straight) 'bad' parents.

Maniac - I've actually long ceased to care much about the parent debate....our society is falling apart at the seams because traditional morality, the idea that there are absolutes, the there is right and wrong, is no longer accepted thinking.

So I'll mock the deviants while I still have free speech and have fun with it.

Of course Kate was hot in a bikini. That's why SHE MARRIED THE PRINCE OF ENGLAND.

Still, if I were him, there would have been hotter women. Oh well, can't criticize a balding guy for getting her, it's pretty impressive from my standpoint.

And please, guys, if you want to talk about natural parents, well, give me a break. Humans disrespect nature over and over again daily. And no, I'm not referring to carbon emissions or habitat destruction or oil spills or whatever. I'm referring to things like air conditioning - that's not natural. If you want natural, sure... if you wear eyeglasses and contacts, we should throw you into a volcano. If you have ever used polyester in your life, you are damned for eternity. Unless you are going to push for the incarceration of all people with prosthetics, don't give me that natural bullshit.

I know four openly gay couples, three with two women and one with two men. All four of these couples have children, and the two men have three, two adopted and one taken in after his parents were killed in a robbery. The latter child is currently enrolled in Cornell University and is well on his way. The two adopted children both have a GPA over 4.0 in a prestigious private high school. All three of these kids have been raised by a gay couple for at least 10 years (the two adopted ones for 16 years) and are as "normal" as anyone.

The three couples of two women each have a single child, two of them in public elementary school and one too young for school. And guess what? They do what every other kid does. They play with friends, they laugh, they cry, they have nightmares, and they love their parents like that's the only thing in the world that matters to them. Doesn't seem to me like those kids are getting hurt by growing up with two incredible women.

And then there is the couple that live down the road from me. They are quite rich - their house is worth well over $500,000 - and they have a 2012 Lexus and two Porsches. Their eldest son is going to Indiana University and taking out around $50,000 of student loans to pay for it. In the mean time, his two brothers in high school each drive brand new cars since they both got their license last year and his parents just bought a second house in northeastern Indiana on a lake for over $700,000.

Then there's the couple that live in Fishers that have been separated legally (and imprisoned) because they would abuse their child during fights and eventually he had to get put into a coma to keep his body running after his dad beat him up so badly.

And then there's the hundreds of thousands if not millions of straight, low-income parents with eight kids that are working their asses off to pay their bills but just can't do it and lose their home and can't help to get their kids into college so that they can get out of poverty and it goes on for generations.

And then there's the parents that raise their kids to think that gay couples are inherently bad because it's not the same thing that they grew up with, creating more bigotry when the majority of people in the country just want the bigotry to go away once and for all.

But gay parents are obviously worse.

No. Parenting is judged on an individual basis. That's all there is to it.

Krellin - I live in a country that once forced Alan Turing to be chemically castrated for being Gay. Soon we are going to have gay marriage. I call this progress, would you call this society falling apart at the seams?

Maniac - nobody gives a fuck. I don't live in the past as you do. God damn...you know, things went wrong in the past - in **every** country on the planet...and then civilization recognizes those wrongs and make CHANGES....and then moronic liberals still hold fast to the past and ignore the positive changes because they just *have* to have something to bitch about.

You know what...here's a news flash, for example...a black kid that did drugs and was from a broken family of mixed race became President. Hey....guess what...affirmative action and the civil rights movement WORKED. anyone can do what they want if they have talent and ambition.

But moron Noble White Lefties don't want to acknowledge that, because they have a Savior complex and think they exist to save all the darkies and women from the evil world that they are too ill-equipped on their own to make it in without Noble White Liberal Man's help...

Calvin Coolidge didn't like Sodomites.

Krellin - "anyone can do what they want if they have talent and ambition" unless you happen to be someone like Trayvon Martin. I believe I and many other of my fellow human beings have the talent and ambition to be the next King of England. All the talent and ambition in the world ain't going to put me ahead of a little baby born yesterday. This is why lefties still strive for equality of opportunity and why tradionalist hanker for a glorious past and try to say that their way of thinking is right and moral despite all the evidence.

You're right - TM didn't have talent or ambition. He was a thug, which had nothing to do with his skin color. Instead of getting in to fights in school and getting suspended, he should have studied more...then maybe he wouldn't have been so bold as to attack an adult....excuse me...so bold as to attack a "Cracker Asshole"...

Racist thug with no ambition...that's what TM was. Too bad.