Draug,

Well, we can play with definitions all night long. Is there much point in it? Clearly, the definition of "psychic" I was using when I said I didn't believe in the present existence of psychics was not the one you offer (though I'm not aware of any modern-day prophets, either). I don't actually know of ANYBODY who uses the word psychic to refer to getting messages from God, as opposed to non-theist spirits, so I question even the validity of your word game. Regardless of that, it's pretty well established among, well, everybody that you have to interpret somebody's words according to the definition they were using when they said them, or you're just playing word games.

Similarly, the Holy Ghost is not a ghost in the modern sense of the term, as you doubtless know, which is to say, the spirit of a still-dead person returned to earth. The words "ghost" and "spirit" used to be more interchangeable than they are today.

But thank you for a pointless little aside.

Thank you, Draug. : ) I posted before your second post, so my evident irritation doesn't extend to your sharing a helpful link.

My first post was more trolling (and it worked) but the second was an answer to krellin's insistence they are in the Bible. Seeing as the only appearance of a spiritor ghost of the nature referred to here or of a medium/psychic is the story of Saul, Samuel's ghost, and the Witch of Endor and that scholars still debate if God interveined in a "mirable" moment or if Samuel's ghost was actually a demon as Saul never looked at him...

My personal views are that we leave behind us a sort of memory/imprint anywhere we live for an extended period, like a memory foam pillow or mattress. And old houses or places where extreme events occur get those imprint embedded deeply. But I don't believe peopl can "read" them or that there is an actual person's spirit involved.

And, honestly, if I hadn't grown up in a now 180 year old house with a "ghost" or two of it's own, I probably wouldn't be accepting of that. But I can't deny what my own sense have experienced - just sounds and occassional vague apparitions, never any physical interaction involving touch (like a poltergeist), where matter was involved and all "cold spots" could be attributed to nerves as something else was visually or audibly happening at the time.

"My first post was more trolling (and it worked)"

Touche Draug.

Yeah, I wouldn't laugh at somebody for thinking they'd seen a ghost, necessarily (depending on the situation). I just haven't experienced evidence to convince me and, as I said, while it's not something I've studied thoroughly, at my level of engagement I find the theological arguments against stronger than those for or maybe.

To some degree, even the courts recognize the possibility that a tramatic event (someone being murdered) could leave an imprint on a residence in some way. Or at least that it is a potential material defect and should be disclosed as it may affect a potential buyer's decision to purchase or not.

Well, true, although one could argue that they are only recognizing that some people believe in such things, and this could effect the home's value if it gets out.

I suppose Tolstoy believes in this too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2372171/Carlo-Van-Roers-Auracam-6000-photographs-capture-colors-persons-soul.html

Actually, that is just the moodring equivalent of a camera and is quite feasible. It explains it perfectly in the first paragraph. It uses biofeedback sensors on the subjects hands (i.e. it's a mood ring camera). Depending on what all it captures (pulse rate, O2 levels, temperature, skin tone, relative humidity) it could do all kinds of cool stuff with the info. This is all very legit and some of these readings are used by hospital equipment while others are used in product testing. I had to write a systemt hat could capture this information on test subjects who were trying on lotions (sun tan, skin creme, healing balms, etc) and do a before and after comparison with intermediate checks. So the technician would test before application, immediately after, 5 minutes after, 15 minutes after, and 1 hour after for instance. This was common for testing sunblock on pygmie pigs (whose skin was closest to human skin without doing actual human testing). They even used this on humans to test underarm deodorants for skin irritation over time in stressful/high heat or non-stressful situations.

So if you would have read the article, you would know there is nothing "supernatural" about what he is doing.

Before posting, Invictus, you should actually *read* the article and see what it is about.

You mean this first paragraph?
"Carlo Van de Roer doesn't just capture a person when he takes their photograph, he captures the color of their soul."

Who's the one not reading it? Nothing at all that you say is in this piece.This article is pure woo-woo and these photos are specifically said to be of "auras" not whatever other stuff you're going on about. The problem isn't that the camera can capture the electromagnetic field. It's that this field is claimed to have some sort of paranormal aspect, such as the colors being connected to mood.

So you're right that it's like a mood ring, but that just reinforces my point about how it's bullshit.

I think that everything I don't know or understand is bullshit because I am the centre of my own universe and everything is revolving around me ..... did I mention me, yes !!
Me, me, me, me,me,me ...... someone needs a hug :-)

@Invictus - The articles author is an idiot, yes. But I would point out the following quotes as evidence of what I was saying.

"The innovative camera gathers biofeedback through hand sensors that measure the electromagnetic fields emitted from the person he's shooting." - Highlighting how the camera works.

"'I became more involved with the subject. The act of making the portraits became almost a kind of theatrical performance, trying to affect the subject who in theory could affect the portrait by being connected to the camera.


'Of course, the more involved I got, the more involved the subject became—and I became more aware of the power-play involved.'" - Pointing out how he can manipulate that "aura".

Nothing the photographer said indicated a "soul". As far as an "aura", the human body produces electromagnetic fields. Yes, yes it does. They are measurable. Science doesn't even dispute this, but confirms it. So the photographer refers to their electromagnetic fiedls as an aura. No what else medicine calls an aura? The feeling an epileptic gets just before havign a seizure. Know what that aura is? A shift in their brain's electromagnetic and electrochemical signature indicating an oncoming seizure. Aura isn't some ethereal new-age term, but a legitimate term used in medicine. And the photographer wrote a book explaining the colors... That would be legit. He triggers a particular emotional response and gets a specific color. If he replicates the response/color combo repeatedly, then he has created a "key" to the electromagnetic "aura" colors.

But my point is you r bullshit abou tpeople believing it. It's scientific sound, not some mystical newage hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. It is backed by science. So the article's author used soul one time, the photographer did not. In fact, he even made it clear he can alter the colors by altering the subject's attitude which clearly means he doesn't view it as some ethereal supernatural soul.

SemckDraug: (to answer a post from many threads above) m- yes the girl that was making money for her master by divining the future (until Paul or whoever ran the spirits out of her) was a "psychic" or "medium"....I guess I'm not real up to speed on all my specific terminologies for people that can divine/predict/talk to the dead/whatever.

As for the ghost story in the old testament (which I used to read to my kids every Halloween...lol), the Bible says that they raised the ghost of Saul -- it doesn't say they spoke to a demon. There is no reason to believe that the Bible is being intentioanally misleading here, and scholars that have put the Bible in to modern languages go back to the original words used to write the intended meaning -- so when it says "ghost", I trust it is a ghost.

It is bizarre to me to think that believe believe in an afterlife in which you are still you, but don't believe in ghosts. It is baffling to believe in healing, to believe in all the things of the Bible, etc, but not believe in the possibility of psychics.

I believe that the overwhelming majority of psychics are whack jobs, frauds and hucksters....but if I believe the Bible at all, then I have to believe in the possiblilty that someone has these abilities, as ridiculous as it sounds. Because it's equally ridiculous to think I will live for eternity in some other form (or in a "new body")

Anyway - as to the questions of whether things happen because of demonic influence/power -- well, of course. If it is not *of God*, then it is of Satan...so yes, people with "powers", ghosts being raised to tell the future -- yes, these are demonic influences...And since the New Testament says we fight a war of principalities and powers....of demons...then demons are alive and well today in this world.

Hell...a damned good portion of WebDip forum members are pretty obviously possessed if you ask me.

Fucktards like Obi who can justify murdering humans out of the womb because the umbilical is still connected? That is one demonic infested fucktard...

Now you're just making things up and wallowing in your ignorance of the New Age idea of auras, which is obviously what this article was going for. Even if aura is a medical term (and, despite a history of epilepsy in my family I have never heard it used like that), that proves nothing. It's obviously not how it's being used in this article.

Here's a complete explanation of what's really going on, without the bile from me since it's people falling for nonsense like this that really, really pisses me off.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4075

I don't know what's more infuriating: that you may believe this dreck or that you're such a noodge that you felt the need to write that logically muddled collection of posts to try and smart-assily prove someone wrong.

krellin, that might be your dumbest post yet.

What's so stupid about it, Invictus?

Ghosts aren't real!

@invictus - https://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/auras Fucking pwnd dude! As far as what I believe, I have given you proof that what the camera does is real. It records a real measurable phenomenon. The fact some new age whack jobs view it as some ethereal thing just means they are whack jobs. It doesn't dominish the scientific proof that the body does have a low level set of electromagnetic fields. Hell, we are cpacitors. If we weren't, we could use capacitive touch screens without a capacitive stylus.

@krellin - The bible never actually states that he saw Saul's ghost. Quite the opposite. God refused to talk to Samuel so Samuel went and sought a witch, one known to commune with the deceiver. The Bible never makes clear whether she was deceiving Samuel or not and Samuel was rebelling against God by seeking her out when God didn't wish him to know anything. It is a story of Samuel's disobedience andf not to be taken as an affirmation of a spirit world. In fact, the Jews don't believe in "hell" as the Christians do or in a spiritual world per se. So for the Hebrew people to record an actual "spirit" encounter that wasn't in fact an aspect of the deceiver would be extremely out of charactre. Additionally, Jesus told the parable of the rich man in hell who wanted to go back and warn his brothers or to have Abraham go back to warn them for they would listen to Abraham, but Abraham made it clear that they would not listen to him and, even if they would, there was a great divide and no one could cross back over. I would think the Son of Man would know whether or not one could pass over between heaven or hell and the world of the living. Jesus was only the second and last to return form the dead (the first being Lazarus, but then Jesus said he wasn' dead, just sleeping, so either Jesus lied or Lazarus was so near death as to appear dead to the lay person but was in fact alive and healed by Jesus commandment to come forth.

Invictus -- the post is based on the presumption that the Bible is true.

IF a person believes that the Bible is true, than of a necessity all these other things must be true to.

I could really give a fuck what you think - I'm clearly not speaking to you.

After all, you apparently believe that you are magically evolved from a single celled organism that defied all odds not once or twice, but *billions* of times over and became a better, more complex creature over and over again....billions of times over...despite that fact that **every other** organized structure in the universe is known to degrade, not improve, over time...

So you believe in your silly magic, and let others believe in their silly magic.

Invictus,

Oh! I forgot. We're allowed to use question-begging here. Well, that does clear up some things.

Saul and the Medium at Endor

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”

“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”

10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

**By my read, the medium raised a ghost.

As for Jews not believing in the spiritual world as Christians do -- well, since Christians ARE the decsendants of Jews...i.e. Christianity is the fullfillment of Judiasm, and Christians believe that the Jews have missed a few things (Jesus!) - I'll respectfully disregard the Jew's belief on the spirit world and accept that there is a spirit world if you believe in Christian doctrine.

As for Jesus parable - I'm not certain this applies - but I will not answer fully at this time as I am not studied enough at the moment.

As for Lazarus,he was dead, no doubt about it. "Sleep" was a euphamism.

1 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


Ugh....I'd really love to get into an in depth on religion but just don't have the time right now.

Draugnar, if you're so dense to not see that I was always talking about the New Age definition of auras then there's nothing to be done for you. Sure there's some faint electromagnetic field. I remember seeing a Vsauce video that said we all slightly glow. That doesn't mean that people turn red when they're feeling creative. It's like you're having the argument you want to have so that you make yourself seem cleverer rather than deal with what I was actually talking about.


krellin, I'm a decently practicing Catholic who believes in theistic evolution. Meaning evolution happened just as science says and that's the mechanism through which God created life.

As a monk who came to my parish once said, "Everything in the Bible is true, and some of it really happened." The point is to live your life the right way, not to be able to hope in a time machine to watch Cain kill Abel. Maybe the stories literally happened, maybe they didn't. The point is the lesson and truth contained therein.

"Oh! I forgot. We're allowed to use question-begging here. Well, that does clear up some things."

I'm sorry, but I'm going to waste my time arguing about the existence of ghosts.

Who the fuck said anything about watching Cain kill Abel? What the hell are you talking about?

I could really care less what you call yourself....I would call you "typical"....i.e. one of those guys that likes to pretend he's a Chrisitan...one of those guys that says, "Oh, I'll pick and choose what I wan to believe out of the Bible...becaus God was just kind of kidding about most of it..."

If you are also like most Catholics, you probably haven't ever given the book a read cover to cover, but will freely comment on its contents -- for that, I have pretty much zero respect. You might as well pretend to be an expert on quantum physics while you're at it because you once watched Star Trek.

Pathetic.

"I'm sorry, but I'm [not] going to waste my time arguing about the existence of ghosts."

Certainly no need to. But if you're going to call somebody's post stupid, you should be prepared to explain what in his *reasoning* was bad, not just denigrate his conclusion and then say you have no time or interest to engage. If the latter is true, you can just bypass commenting altogether. The post, after all, was not addressed to you.

You missed verses 1 & 2 where Samuel sent them away as false and worshippers of the deceiver. This is important to set the context for the story.

Note that in verse 13, Saul comes up out of the Earth. Do yuou think Saul was in hell? Why would he come up from the earth if it was his spirit which should have ascended to paradise as a faithful servant of the Lord God?

1 Samuel 28

New International Version (NIV)

28 In those days the Philistines gathered their forces to fight against Israel. Achish said to David, “You must understand that you and your men will accompany me in the army.”

2 David said, “Then you will see for yourself what your servant can do.”

Achish replied, “Very well, I will make you my bodyguard for life.”
Saul and the Medium at Endor

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”


Saul had banished the mediums -- I understand that. That's why Saul had to ask somebody, "Yo yo...where can I find a medium??" and then when she realizes it's Saul, she freaks out because she thinks he's setting her up. But there is no indication at all that she is not a real medium The mediums were not executed...they were banished...which is why Saul had to go seek her out.

"I could really care less what you call yourself....I would call you "typical"....i.e. one of those guys that likes to pretend he's a Chrisitan...one of those guys that says, "Oh, I'll pick and choose what I wan to believe out of the Bible...becaus God was just kind of kidding about most of it...""

I guess you don't eat shellfish or blood, don't let women speak in church, don't let your daughters pierce their ears, wouldn't remarry after divorce...