Hi Moscow thank you for reminding us you have posted. Most of us dont read the game so its important to remind us.

xorxes i don't really have any questions for you other than being suspicious of your lurky-then-reactive nature thus far. i'm having trouble seeing scum-hunting from the little you've done yet, just trying to do the bare minimum of participation. you also 100% ignore brainbomb asking you about any development on your read of me. ##VOTE xorxes

Lunchtime at work so just catching up.

I think Day one is providing some useful information so far. Dr. Mario is a clever chap. I am starting to develop potential cases and reads on a few people but for now I'm happy to keep my vote where it is...

Now I'm trying to figure out if Brainbomb is being sarcastic.

Hey, I'VE got a great idea!!!! A Day 1 lynch tends to always be a townie. Let's lynch a lurker. it will probably be a townie....but what the hell they "aren't helping" anyway.


Total scum move.

they are **contributing**, but in the end they still tip the ration of Town/Mafia.

Anyone that thinks it is perfectly acceptable to lynch a townie is just a dumbass, has apparently failed basic math and logic, and is not working for the town.

Some VT lurkers are just shitty asshole players that joined and then decided it was too much work. But, they cast a vote based upon what they read or they get mod-killed. No luker VT is going to *intentionally* help the mafia win. No active VT is going to intentionally help the mafia win....but hey, mafia wins all the time despite intentions.

This is a game of numbers -- and lynching blindly, killing someone that provides no information just out of sheer bloodlust is utterly retarded. It's "I know this game better than you...lynching is always good" and it's bullshit. If the notion "It happens every game, therefore it's the right thing to do" were true, then Town would win a majority of games. Since this statement is not true, you cannot logically claim that the statement "It's the standard acceptable practice, therefore the best way" to be true -- it's NOT.

I'm just reiterating what I've read several people use as their logic for lynching a lurker. After all, captainmeme is set to be lynched right now. And on D1, the argument for lynching a lurker is making sense to me because lurkers are just as likely to be Mafia as anyone else and you're not really working with any other information on D1.

I may be wrong, but I'm more thinking out loud right now as opposed to forming conclusions.

Lots of interesting reactions to my opening post. That's good. Some thoughts:
1. Announcing you will lurk and then not lurking, yet people still think I'm lurking. I've posted a decent amount for someone who is supposedly "intentionally lurking." True, I'm not spamming the thread 24/7, but some of us do work and have things to do sometimes.
2. Wild accusations were indeed thrown - at me, primarily, just as I predicted.
3. We didn't have any joke posting in the beginning, but instead dived right into the real talk.

As President Bush once said (or banner'd?)... Mission Accomplished.

So that was your only goal, Chaqa, by that first post? To get things going?

Eh, one goal at least. I also wanted people to realize I was a VT, which I think only captain really got. Not sure a scum would have picked up on the "Concerned Citizen" part of the role, but in my PM it was all I was told.

Krellin, the last time I saw you try to argue against policy-lynching people that killed off 2 of our pr's with the lynch you were scum defending other scum.

You have argued in the past that day1 is allways the same "lynch a towny" regardless. You've been smug every time about it, blaming everyone for being terrible at the game, yada yada. And ofcourse we can never take voting records seriously according to you.

But now that we want to lynch a lurker, day1 is suddenly super usefull according to you to find scum and gather information. You are contradicting your own logic at every turn. If we do manage to lynch captainmeme and he flips scum youre going to be my next go-to lynch target.

Also - ##vote krellin. I think brainbomb is being more brain and less bomb right now, but krellin seems off.

What does that even mean?

Yeah Chaqa, im sure no scum would -EVER- think of checking the role pm's in the initial post to add credibility to their false claim.

You claim to be wanting to provoke people, but you didnt provoke any shit that is of worth. How has your "oh so clever misdirection" benefitted town? At least draw conclusions from what you have done and tell us what usefull information it has given us. Now youre just appearing to be realizing your stupid plan backfired.

Goldy/xorxes; I like the idea of breaking things down in to smaller groups to get a more educated decision, particularly in D1. Groupings don't have to be random at all and can actually be made to fit behavior that would be expected of scum. As an example, I think it would be safe to reason that at least one of the six would view posting early as a good way to stay out in front of the action. That was part of my reasoning for voting Chaqa. There are certainly other likely scum behaviors that could be used to break down the original group in to a more managable number.

Xorxes, were you dismissing goldie's tactic as not having value?

Actually Vecna, I was NOT scum at that point in the game as I had not yet exercised my power.

This is pretty amusing. When did Vecna grow a pair? Guy is playing really strangely.

Maybe a scum would, but would a scum really take that risk and post the first post? The first poster has ALWAYS been accused of being scummy in our games. I wonder if they've ever actually been scum.

@bb: it was a compliment, more or less.

@Chaqa -- please fucking define "off". Good lord. You tell me I'm "OFF" and vote for me based upon some shitty one liner? You, one of the guys that loves to put up 50-point diatribes to make a case? YOU are calling ME off and voting for me without even trying to make a case?

Fuck off. Make a fucking case that I can actually defend myself against, asshole.

Since when do I put up 50-point diatribes? I'm more of a shoot-from-the-hip player.

Chaqa says "Eh, one goal at least. I also wanted people to realize I was a VT, which I think only captain really got. Not sure a scum would have picked up on the "Concerned Citizen" part of the role, but in my PM it was all I was told."

This dude is fucking dirty.

##VOTE Chaqa

I am going to go ahead and tentatively agree with Goldies ideation as well. Even if it includes myself because if there is anything that can be gleaned from Day 1 it is finding out of any Mafia jumped the gun early on voting, and were thus the lead off point man. We can go from there and re-read interactions early on from a much simpler more organized pool of players doing things this way.

I favor lynching someone who spoke early more than I favor lynching someone who lurked because contrived talkers are much more dangerous to town than lurkers.

I realize that what I am saying is literally the blueprint I used last game to great effectiveness. however xorxes has played almost identical to last game in this regard. The other person who stands out, is jamiet, who voted, and then unvoted early on. I heard someone a few pages back maybe it even was goldy say Jamiet doesnt count.

Why doesnt Jamiet count? That makes no sense, its still a vote, of course it counts. From some perspectives only scum would ever self vote. Also Jamiet has stated he is against unvoting. I'm not saying this makes him scum, but his vote was among the first 4 levied, so he is not any more innocent than anyone else. For that matter he could have voted for Putin33 if were going to claim his vote was irrelevant.

@Vecna -- you have now **completely** lied about my stances.

1. Day 1 luynhes most often kill a townie, therefore it is a SCUM-favorable action
2. I have never said that voting records are "useless", I have said they are easy faked by clever mafia, and they are often misinterpreted when an honest townie makes a mistake. So idiots that want to SOLELY use voting records are full of shit or who put too much weight on voting records.
2a. For a REAL lurker, the ONLY thing you will have about them is the voting record, and therefore is you want to have any guage on a lurker, the only thing you have is voting patterns, therefore you have to wait at least a day to draw any conclusion about the lurker behavior. Again, minimal info, but better than nothing, and the only thing you have for a lurker
3. NOT ALL LURKERS ARE FUCKING SCUM YOU FUCKING MORONS. tHEY ARE OFTEN JUST SHITTY PLAYERS OR PR'S TRYING TO NOT DRAW ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR ARROGANT FUCKING SKULLS

It's too bad that all you super-fucking smart assholes don't have basic reading skills, because everything I said above I have said in this game. the logic is consistent and clear if you actually would spend more time reading ewhat I wrote and less time whining about me like stuck up bitches.

And if you lynch CaptainMeme, and he turns up Town, then by your own fucking logic we should kill you, dumbass?

@Chawa --- TELL ME HOW I AM "OFF". Claim you shoot form the hit -- you stil have to EXPLAIN your fucking vote.

Anyone voting without an explanation is only benefitting the scum.

So you actually think a town PR -lurking- is not drawing attention to themselves?

Oh dear lord

@ghug - where are you camping? You know, since you brought it up and all.

So Vecna questions Chaqa about his opening post, asking how it benefited us, among other things. And Chaqa responds with a vague comment about Vecna playing strangely and defending himself by saying the first poster is never scum. And then Krellin questions Chaqa's vote, which Chaqa also avoids answering. ##VOTE Chaqa

Regarding the option of voting for an "active" player, and why it is a far superior option:

1. People have already behaved in inappropriate manners -- for example, people that vote for others WITHOUT CAUSE or explanation -- that is scum behavior.
2. People that defend other people this early in the game with reasoning you don't agree with. Not all defense is bad, but if you think someone's explanation is fishy, that is information.
3. People that make "process" suggestions that you feel are not of the benefit of the town. Yes, this can be an opinion issue -- but do they defend their opinion with logic, or do they defend their opinion with "this is just the way it's done" or worse, simply and ONLY attack the person with a different opinion
4. See who are grouping together in attitudes and processes, etc, especially if you find those behaviors disconcerting
5. People who are exhibiting radical shifts in known behavior


There is a WEALTH of information -- in fact, 534 lines, currently, of information that can be drawn upon to make a slightly more education guess than "he's a fucking lurker". and Because it is an educated guess, there is a slightly higher chance that you can draw a line between person A and person B in the future, if we are ass-backwards lucky enough to actually catch a scum.

There -- THAT is part of the counter-argument to actually lynch a player about whom we have knowledge.

Lurker can do no harm in the game because they are lurkers, and they can also be killed AT ANY TIME if there is consensus to kill lurkers.

So go for the ADDITIONAL information from the lynch if a Day 1 lynch must happen.


4.

Looking at previous games and how town PR's play, I think its just rediculous logic. They always do get involved since if they dont THEN THEY STAND OUT.

Mafia however do tend to LURKLURKLURK. It has always proven to be a valid tactic, since town indeed do not know whether a lurker is a town pr or scumbo. Last game, we had most of the scum lurking with the exception of you and brainbomb.

Threatening or actually lynching lurkers is a great way to get them lazy VT's to participate. find potential scum or just get rid of the least useful person to town.

Krellin you forget one vital piece.

Lynching does not only give information. It also cuts out all the potential information that that person will supply on future days.

Talking players that are lynched will continue to give out a lot more information on future days than lynching them on day1 ever will, in nearly all cases.

Lurkers that survive D1 will continue to not give any information at all.

So I once again pose that if youre going to be lynching a lurker, just for the sake of lurking, there is no better time to do it than day1. Day1 we have the least information to make a proper choice. Lynching lurkers on future days will result in a much bigger information loss than doing it on day1.

And yes I do want to policy lynch the damn lurkers. Its a good policy. Its fair, its just, its what we need to do. Give us our right to be able to question your playstyle or DIE.