What I wrote and what you wrote are not mutually exclusive.

Also you imply that it has other uses.

Both you and Zmaj seem to suggest that Putin is just reacting based on some abstract principle whereas I think his objection stems from very real observations of the effects of religion on society.

Greyson, , "Many who are Christians have provided a great deal of evidence of hypocrisy and, hence, have turned many people against it."

Greyson, your statement that "Many who are Christians have provided a great deal of evidence of hypocrisy and, hence, have turned many people against it" is definitely true. Jesus was extremely clear about that, calling some of the Pharisees of his day "White-washed pigpens" because they looked good on the outside but inside was the worst kind of decay and corruption. And I want to reiterate the point that I'm not a Christian because I'm good--I'm a Christian because I'm not good, and I need God's help.

@SunZi why can't both be true?

Also any mass ideology tends to effect society in negative ways. You can find similar examples in nationalism, Capitalism, Communism to name a few. Of course you can make the argument that some form of mass ideology has to exist to bind people together or their would be no such thing as society as we understand it. Any ideology is problematic because people internalize it so any threat to it implies a threat to them personally. I have always wondered why people ascribed the failings of human nature and the attendant atrocities, small or large, that arise from them on the ideologies they possess when we have clear examples how each of the ideologies go bad. It seems readily apparent that we need to look no farther than a mirror when looking for causes.

@mujus Buddhism has an interesting notion about this. He likened Dharma as medicine. You take medicine because your are ill not because you are healthy. He goes a step further, however. Once you are cured there is no reason to take the medicine any longer. He saw the Dharma as a vehicle not as a permanent state of affairs.

It's scandalous how we all seem to agree but no one wants to admit that they agree with "the other guys". So many of the readings come to that common thought. Christians are admonished not to seek the love or adoration from the world because it will not approve of us. We are at our worst when we become frightenend or angered by others and attempt to use political might to force our way upon them. We are at our best when we love and care for others not expecting the same in return.

Crazy plus 2 for "We are at our worst when we become frightenend or angered by others and attempt to use political might to force our way upon them. We are at our best when we love and care for others not expecting the same in return."

I'm opposed to religion because it ruins people's lives and for what, stupid ghost stories? Stop pretending it's innocuous and just a matter of academic taste. We just had Operation Rescue terrorists and spread their filthy billboards all across campus (these are the same people who helped assassinate George Tiller). North Carolina *just passed* a resolution that devastates families, and strips women being battered in domestic partnerships of any protections, among many other things. Bans children adopted by gay or unmarried parents of any state benefits whatsoever. All of this in the name of religion. I used to be a 'live and let live' person when it came to religion,as a Marxist, thinking that being anti-religious turned off working class support. But that's nonsense, religion is poison, the Christian Ayatollahs are ruining this country.

"Also any mass ideology tends to effect society in negative ways. You can find similar examples in nationalism, Capitalism, Communism to name a few."

The difference is all of those provide some room for correction and self-criticism. Religion does not. It is infallible, the word of god. Souls are eternally punished for deviance.

"People like Putin and Nigee attack religion because they feel it's weak and dying (which it is). Vultures. On the other hand, if you take something that includes loads of crap just like organized religion, but its position is currently strong, like "ecology" or "social justice", they'll respectfully shut their traps and start lighting candles. "

I don't even know what this means. I do not think religion is 'weak and dying'. America is not Slovenia. We're a country full of fundamentalists. I mean we're seriously having to debate access to birth control in the year 2012. I would attack religion so much if I thought it wasn't a threat. As for the rest, as I said, I don't know what it means. Probably Zmaj just trying to ingratiate himself to the religious even though he claims he isn't.

I don't know why people are saying Mujus is taking abuse for his condescending "I'll pray for you" crap. He is not. He mutes anybody who is remotely critical of him, unless he thinks he can pray for them. Instead he gets a half dozen people who go on and on about what a swell guy he is. He wouldn't be posting this stuff if he didn't want people to be impressed with him. Nobody seriously thinks they can convert anybody on a webdip forum.

@ SunZi

I'm curious as to what efffect religion can have on anything. I would think that more specifically religious adherents and religious organizations could have an affect, but not religion itself in any way other than influencing adherents. If it is religious people and religious organizations that have an effect. Then I'd respond differently for each. This is within the context of a representative republic.

If it is religious people that are influencing society, I'd say it would be very hard in most cases to isolate which decisions to vote are based upon their religious beliefs and which are based upon other factors. That kind of scrutiny is inappropriate anyway. A citizen is entitled to have a say in his/her government in a representative republic. Basically I don't criticize people for voting one way or another, or for advocating one political platform or another. I've already expressed that I don't think Christians should be in the power business, and as such I tend to be socially liberal even if I'm a fiscal conservative.

As far as religious organizations supporting particular political causes, I take more of a negative view. When it comes down to brass tacks as a Christian I'm not in favor of religious organizations becoming brokers of worldly power. It only tends to inflame anti-church sympathy and it goes against Christ's directives and examples in a big way. He specifically did not try to establish an earthly kingdom, so it seems futile to try to establish one for him. As a citizen of my home country, I tend to agree with the line (from Bovard? ) democracy has to be "more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what ot have for dinner". I don't support limiting the influence of other groups because I could count on them one day repaying the favor.

"See, it wasn't the beliefs of the Heaven's Gate cult that caused people to drink the koolaid, it was the people within the cult. See the difference?"

How to avoid accountability - become a Christian.

"He specifically did not try to establish an earthly kingdom"

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Do Christians even read the Bible?

@Putin

Again we agree about the actual voting line. I'm right there with you in my disapproval of these initiatives. They're wrong, and I the error is compounded by trying to force their judgements on others. They'll also do nothing but drain the treasuries of those states in law suits designed to have them thrown out as unconstitutional.

On the other hand, you've got an adversary ready to ally with you but still his religion "poisons" him? That very religion is providing a basis for the very thing you'd like. A way to get Christians to ratchet down the rhetoric. I absolutely disagree with you on your assessment of the effects of Christians and religious organizations. I'd warrant that while those initiatives passed you're going to find a fair number of Christians that voted against them.

Cherry pick what you like.
Forget about what you don't.
Enjoy your social club.

"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Another great quote, and sure we do. You do not baptize someone into your political organization. That is specifically talking about spreading the word and converting people to Christianity. Christ has been given authority to say what is right and what is wrong. Not me. I'm not called upon to judge at all.

As I rememebr it that quote comes after he's been crucified at the hands of Rome right? He wasn't there to take over and establish himself as a king with earthly power.

"The difference is all of those provide some room for correction and self-criticism. Religion does not. It is infallible, the word of god. Souls are eternally punished for deviance."

Yet we have Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, and Lutherans, and Methodists, Anglican (Episcopal, ACNA, APA, etc). All of which agree on somethings but disagree on others, thet's not a good thing though? It isn't because to self-correct and disgree but because we can't get it together or make sense of it? It's all about how you choose to characterize us again. A resonable person disagrees, a fanatic disputes and bickers. Which choice of words will dignify your adversary and which will villfy him.

**we** - rather than **to**

Let me clarify though, I'm not called upon to judge others. I am called upon to judge myself that's part of any moral code. Should probably go without saying, but anyway.

That's not the same as believeing that nothing is wrong. Only believeing that I shouldn't push my religion on someone else. It's cruel as you suggest and ultimately not a good way to get converts.

Also in response to the sects of Christianity. Sure we can point back to sectarian violence over the years, but that goes to exactly what I am saying about not trying to establish earthly power. It's exactly why todays climate in this country of discussion rather than violence as a rule is a very good thing.

"How to avoid accountability - become a Christian."

Lol, love it......yes and know. I do have to acknowledge that I've done something wrong and ask for forgiveness making an honest attempt to corrrect my behavior and then I'm forgiven. That's my take on it anyway.

I heard Jesus is coming soon, have we got a date yet, I need to get some stuff sorted before he arrives.

I'm Jesus, NigeeBaby.

"Nobody seriously thinks they can convert anybody on a webdip forum."

Oh Putin, I think I can. Seriously. Here, lemme try.

Hey TWA, are you a pagan? No? May I tell you what the Norse pantheon has to offer?

The Norse pantheon is false. It was created out of whole cloth relatively recently, actually.

Now kneel before Zeus.

"The difference is all of those provide some room for correction and self-criticism. Religion does not. It is infallible, the word of god. Souls are eternally punished for deviance."
I don't think this is entirely true. Religion has certainly manifested in the way that you have described, a tool of social control and oppression but it is not it's only way in which it unfolds in peoples lives. It has also manifested as a force of "correction and self-criticism" which calls upon one to lead a more morally correct life and to help others. History is replete with examples of both. Now you may not agree with what the man did but I just watched the movie "Machine Gun preacher" a true story of a man whose criminal and dissolute life was transformed by becoming christian to one of incredible self sacrifice the like of which is rarely seen. Now I am not saying that such a transformation can only happen with religion but in this case one cannot separate Christianity, in this case, from this man's life and get the same result.
I think the tendency, though not entirely true, is that when religion operates as a societal force it does so negatively in the ways that you have mentioned but on an individual level it tends to operate in a positive way, though, again, not always.
Broad brush characterizations miss these differences which I think are extremely important because they offer a window into human psychology. Why is it that in some cases religion can motivate one to act in such a brutal, ignorant way and yet in others can be a positive transforming force that can motivate one to act in such a selfless way for the benefit of others? It is an important question and one that needs to be explored if one wishes to get a true picture of religion as a human phenomena.