JK, wasn't there. Sorry

@damian: I'm not asking you to change your gameplay to "please me" -- I simply made the suggestion so that you could be more useful to the town. But, as you're not bothered about that, and indeed as you are so clearly trying to impress upon us how completely not bothered you are about our opinions of you, I can only raise my eyebrows at your display of disregard.

Copying and pasting huge chunks of your argument to repeat your case and refresh/maintain it in people's minds was something I decided to do in my first game as scum -- so I can see through what you've just done above very easily.

##vote damian

I figured it would be nice to have an updated vote count. Let me know if I missed any votes.

M13 Day 1 unofficial count.
Balki Bartokomous (1): y2kjbk
captainmeme (1): Yoyoyozo
DemonOverlord (1): wjessop
Toemato (1): ghug
wjessop (3): DemonOverlord, SaladinSmith, Toemato
Yoyoyozo (1): guak, captainmeme
Damian (1): ND

Unvoted (2): DeathLlama9, damian

No vote (8): Hellenic Riot, OB_Gyn_Kenobi, Balki Bartokomous, bo_sox48, Maniac, Espi, uclabb

Currently wjessop is set to be lynched.

*Ah, cross posted.

I figured it would be nice to have an updated vote count. Let me know if I missed anyone.

M13 Day 1 unofficial count.
Balki Bartokomous (1): y2kjbk
captainmeme (1): Yoyoyozo
Toemato (1): ghug
wjessop (3): DemonOverlord, SaladinSmith, Toemato
Yoyoyozo (1): guak, captainmeme
Damian (2): ND, Wjessop

Unvoted (2): DeathLlama9, damian

No vote (8): Hellenic Riot, OB_Gyn_Kenobi, Balki Bartokomous, bo_sox48, Maniac, Espi, uclabb

Currently wjessop is set to be lynched.

@Wjessop.
I'm copying my case because you are misrepresenting it.
If the content is there people can read it and make their own decision.

Wow.

@damian: "I figured it would be nice to have an updated vote count."

Please can you explain why?

@Damian,

I see that you've changed your read on wjessop to null. Can you engage a bit more fully with wjessop's reads list? I found it to be pretty town-indicative. It was well organized, it took strong positions, it reflected pretty careful study of the thread. My initial townread on wjessop had really nothing at all to do with his contribution level (I agree with you that his level of contribution was relatively weak), but I found his approach to be bold, unapologetic, and uncensored. It just struck me as someone with nothing to hide. I am now happy to see that he increased his contribution level, and he has performed just about exactly how I would expect Town WJessop to perform.

Was your initial read on him more about getting him to start posting in a contributory way and that's why you've backed off of it? Was there more to it? Does wjessop's latest reads list cause you to reconsider any other earlier notions?

The only thing you changed in your 2 vote count posts was my vote.

What the fuck are you trying to do?

@Wjessop. Its useful to see where people have there votes parked and who is set to be lynched.

I wrote the first post, it took longer than two minutes. Posted. Noticed you had voted on me while I was writing and reposted with the change.

@Balki, for sure. Give me 5-10 minutes and I'll write up a response to his reads

I thought Toemato voted ghug.

@wjessop

With 24 hours still to go, I'm not locking myself onto anyone yet. Particularly as I'm waiting for OB (and to a lesser degree Espi) to turn up; as he doesn't have a history of lurking and I'm surprised by it here.

I don't find the damian case all that compelling; but the DO case isn't bad. As both are getting adequately pressured and questioned by other people; I'm focusing myself on the people who are/were slipping more under the radar, though.

##call gm: official vote count please

@Y2K, just curious, and just an example, but why aren't you gnawing on Hellenic Riot's neck with a foaming mouth after his refusal to take a position on anyone above?

"I'm not locking myself onto anyone yet."

This seems like the sort of crime you're here to police.

@HR
Toe had voted ghug. He changed it on page 9.

@Balki's request

WJ: "Balki -- Town -- As a player in this game, I really appreciate Balki's presence -- right now, whether he's one of us or not, I think his questions and discussion are helpful to town, because so far his input has been making people focus, providing direction, and pushing people."
Generally speaking I agree with WJ's analysis here. However I also agree with Y2K that unwillingness to actually share your opinions is a dangerous trait to have a town member. Town members should be willing to make their opinions know. So far you haven't. Still, you have contributed well otherwise.


WJ "SaladinSmith -- Slight Town -- I think he's just a lazy Day 1 townie -- his Day 1 as a VT in M12 was not particularly inspiring either, although it's worthwhile to note that at least he tried much harder to convince people and be original in Day 1 of M12 -- what exactly has SS contributed so far in M13 by comparison? Disappointing display."
This is a fair analysis. He's done almost nothing this game.

WJ "Espi -- Null, for now -- An interesting quote from Epsi on Page 2:
"Trying to see what exactly I want to do with my role, and trying not to talk as much as I did last game. I hope to come across much more clearly this game"
Is this Espi subtly role-claiming? what exactly does he mean be this?"
Its an interesting point, I stand by what I said about Espi before however. I don't think if Espi was mafia he would have cleared up the TrPrado mess.

WJ: "bo -- Null -- nothing much to add here."
I also didn't have much to say about bo. No strong opinions here.

WJ "Maniac -- Null, but handsome -- I'll wait to see what more Maniac has to offer beyond his "reaction test"."
As I said I've found Maniacs subtle style grating. I cannot draw a good conclusion on him because I'm biased by my distaste for his posts.

WJ "ghug -- Slight scum -- guak posts on Page 9 that "ghug is being an asshole, nothing new here." but I actually don't agree with this -- I think ghug has been quite restrained in this game so far, almost pleasant, or charming; and I find this disturbing. If there's one thing that this man taught me when he was my master it was never trust a ghug with a silver tongue. I plan on following that advice."
I really cannot comment on this, since its references previous ways ghug has acted. I do think ghug has been slightly town so far. Again I don't imagine mafia ghug would give the town the idea of a double lynch.

WJ "uclabb -- Slight scum -- appears on Page 4, involving himself in discussion on VTs claiming PRs; says that Epsi "comes off poorly" and promises "more later"; reads damian and wjessop as town and says that attention should move away from the damian/Do attack on wjessop. Interesting that uclabb essentially wants to close discussion on this. Other than this, uclabb has hardly contributed at all, so it raises my suspicion that uclabb would make a necessity of entering the discussion only to make this particular point."
This is a fair point. I still have no idea why I had a slight town read on uclabb. The problem for me is that this read depends on me being scum. So I'm inclined to ignore it.

WJ "Yoyo -- Slight scum -- drops in on Page2 to vote for meme and then leaves. Has hardly involved himself in the game other than to joke-post and jump on the comments of others. Anyone for a slice of hubris?:
Agreed.

WJ "DemonOverlord -- Scum -- Oh, DO. DO was keen to get involved as soon as the hour struck for game start, making some joke posts and then gleefully joining damian in a witch hunt on me for making joke posts. (This may be a case of do as DO says not as DO does.)
Her comment on page 3 that wjessop posts "one word posts that are full of fluff" is competely nonsensical and is clearly the thought process of someone typing in an excited rush. She adds on page 3 that damian made "serious accusations against" wjessop, which is just laughable considering how dull damian's case was (a case that centered on joke posts in the first hour of a game).
Since she was rightfully called out for this quite quickly and easily by myself and others she has completely disappeared. I have a strong suspicision here that DO came bounding in to this game very excitedly because she has a fun mafia role; she made a mess of joining damian and voting on me; and so now she's lurking away and deciding in her scumchat how to proceed. "

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other on the DO case. It is possible that DO is mafia who tried to jump on my case against wjessop. My case certainly wasn't convincing. However, if anything my entire interaction with wjessop does suggest I need to make less arguments based on people disappearing. DO did say she had work. I'm going to forestall judgement of DO until we get a response.


And after all that. I think you might be right. I switched my read to a null read because I still feel like OMGUS behaviour is scummy. And I do think Wjessop engaged in it when she voted for me the first time. This second time she at least has a case, a case I disagree with but a case never the less. I'm going to stick will a null read for now. Although the quality of the reads lists suggest good things for the future. So maybe null with a very slight town lean

Hey, apologies, I was flying all day. No, y2k, in an airplane. I'll catch up later tonight and should be available on and off and most very likely at EOD.

For non-lurking anchor proof, @ghug, this is the week of my conference in Seattle, of which I posted when you were looking for a Seattle F2F game.

@damian: why are you using female gender pronouns for me?

I don't particularly mind, it doesn't offend me in any way, but I identify as male and I'm wondering why you're doing it.

Your hard-on for me in this game so far is bizarre.

@Wjessop.
I think I got confused during the back and forth between you and DO.
I'll be sure to use male pronouns in the future.

#toolatetorupaulogize

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbHCi5rBpI

To quote William, "that's some shady shay".

*shady shade! :)

and my autocorrect miscorrected Willam to William. I fail.

Since you presented your version of events let me present mine.
Page 2. I acting on a hunch accuse Wjessop of scumminess due to joke posting and vote for him. He follows up by voting for me
(in the following pages Wjessop responds, and explains that he was in bed and didn't have the energy for more serious posts and that he doesn't see the problem with joke posts on the first page. I cede that not replying due to time zones makes sense.) The discussion thus ends
Page 7. I mention that I am mildly scum reading Wjessop still (I don't mention the reason, the reason was I felt that the OMGUS reactionary vote on me was weird)
Wjessop immediately returns and starts defending himself from me. Despite the fact that I hadn't even made a case, all I had done was mentioned I still mildly scum read him.

Pg 8&9 I build a case based on Wjessop appearing to defend himself from a weak unsupported scum read. A case I never would have build if this had not happened.

Pg 9 After presenting my case I inquire what others think of it and end up attempting to counter Y2k's critique of it. At the bottom of the page I explain why I haven't voted for Wjessop. (Since I wanted to give him a chance to return first)

The end in my mind. Apparently I'm" obsessed". Recent posts have been me defending myself.

Anyway, thats how I've viewed this whole mess. To counter balance what Wjessop has presented.

I'm off to dinner will reply to questions later

Oh shit, OB's in town!

@DL, it's no secret that, while I love guak and captainmeme both, I find their mafia play to consistently rival bo's in quality and would prefer that they both either stop fucking playing forever or shape up and actually start playing the damn game. The fact that Yoyo called out lurkers, and them specifically, set off alarm bells in my head.

I'm gonna go back to ##VOTE Yoyo because the Toemato vote was mostly pressure and he doesn't seem to have paid any heed to it since his OMGUS. I'd still like to see more from him though.

@damian: actually, go ahead and keeping using the female pronouns for me if you really want to.

"my pussy is on fire,
now kiss the flame"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4d20Tyzlv0

@WJessop,

I think you're town, but I don't agree with your reads. Principally, I don't agree with the Damian read. It seems like your primary reason for suspecting Damian is that he made some weak arguments against you for joke posting. That's true, but he has flung a lot of questions around to a lot of people. He hasn't really tunneled, and his read on you has evolved as you've become more active. To me, his game so far is very consistent with active and helpful town. Moreover, I'd really hate to lose him if you're wrong. He seems like one of the most productive town members we've got, whether or not his early read on you was correct. He's a Day 1 MVP, for God's sake.

I noticed that while you listed some of Y2K's conduct in your reads post, you did not list him among your reads. Can you weigh in on the Balki/Y2K finger pointing back-and-forth? I found Y2K's "scumslip" smoking gun regarding Demon to be inconsistent with a Town Y2K. Since then, he admitted that the argument was weak, and then tunneled on me for explaining why it was weak. He has also bizarrely tried to take me to task for lack of contributions, when I think there are many more culpable folks with whom Y2K should be pressing that issue. What do you make of this dispute?

True, Y2K was also a Day 1 MVP, but for all the wrong reasons.

Balki, your post on page 5 threw the red flags once I analyzed it carefully. i don't know what you want me to say about HR. he's been a big lurker thus far. yes, i've been more critical of you than others since i voted you, because you haven't given me a reason to feel like i should let up. i've been clear what you should do to convince me you may be town.

i'm going to read through focusing on damian now and report back on my updated thoughts. maybe someone else gets flagged during the reread.

Some things that have stood out to me, attempting to get close to one per person, arranged in order of noteworthiness:

Espi- Espi's game has been a disaster so far. He's so so tonally inconsistent in the first two pages, cycling between joke posting, criticizing joke posting, and claiming not to be joke posting at all. He asked people to address one of Balki's early posts without addressing it himself. He makes a forced seeming address to scum. And now he's run away. ##vote Espi

toemato- Similarly, a disaster game so far. Literally checking off every box for newbie scum. Asking other players what they can do for them, aping past arguments from previous games, obvious fear in posts. I don't agree (with bo) that we shouldn't go for newbie scum day 1. The only argument I see is that it encourages new players to keep playing with us, which is a pretty crappy reason.

DO- To some degree similar to Toemato and Espi, but not really. The case on DO seems to be almost completely based on "scum slips" which are a bull shit way to try to make reads.

bo- This post really stands out to me:

"yeah, when someone completely clueless gets coached, it will become apparent no matter when it occurred. Subtleties might be more difficult to spot with the encryptor, as I already pointed out, but any major changes, especially that first post where he tries really, really hard to do as he was coached to do, will still be obvious."

It just seems weirdly focused on how the mafia is going to behave. If there wasn't day chat, I would feel like he was coaching in the thread. Since there is day chat, I can't help but feel like I am getting reverse psychologied or something like that. Or maybe that he is providing cover for a mafia buddy who started poorly but will be looking to bounce back (Toemato? Espi? DO?)

Damian- I originally like damian's activity, but since damian has made many many posts that are basically like "I'm really aggressive because I'm town" which reads false to me. Town play is about showing, not telling. Pair this with what seems to be a relative lack of purpose with his play and we have a scum lean.

Balki Bartokomous, y2kjbk- I agree with y2k that Balki's posts are most fluff than substance. y2k, you've voted for Balki, damian said he agreed with you. Why aren't you actually trying to get people on the wagon with you?

ghug- I love the idea of using day vig to get an extra lynch. I think the optimal day vig shot is probably halfway through day 2, so I believe that would be Friday at EOD time. People who think for some inexplicable reason that a vig shot is better because it is "100% town motivated" are idiots. If all of our lynches were vig shots, we would get destroyed- the whole source of information is the interactions that come from lynching pressure. The only way this really works is if most everyone agrees to get a vote out by midday day 2. Can people agree/disagree with this?

Yoyoyozo- Agree that his start is scummy. Would vote.

Saladinsmith- It's ironic that you are voting for players based on their usefulness to town. That is all.

wjessop- Never understood the argument against wjessop. Seems the most likely town to me so far.

Maniac- I'm curious to see if Maniac is going to keep up the +1, -1 thing he proposed in the sign up thread. It seems that this is just scum cover. The fact that he hasn't gone to it yet makes me think he is town.

I like guak and HR's early contribution, not as convinced by captmeme.

So, quickly:

1. y2kjbk- slight town
2. ghug- town
3. Hellenic Riot -med town
4. Yoyoyozo - slight scum
5. ND- null
6. Saladinsmith- null
7. OB_Gyn_Kenobi- null
8. DeathLlama9- null
9. Balki Bartokomous- slight scum
10. bo_sox48- med scum
11. captainmeme- ever so slight town
12. wjessop- town
13. Maniac- town
14. Espi- scum
15. Damian- slight scum
16. guak- town
17. Toemato- med scum
18. DemonOverlord- ever so sligh scum lean

(these are relative to the probability that a random player is scum, of course- there's no player except maybe Espi that I think is more likely to be scum than town yet)

@Balki, y2k was stoned out of his mind for the first several hours. Keep that in mind. (I think the DO scumslip nonsense is totally in line with stoned y2k, but you can draw your own conclusions.