"before the save was announced"

Also I figured out last round you were the doc.

Not only was it painfully clear that Fasces was the doc, but the mafia did nothing to narrow down the doc in a systematic way.

@abge: So you are saying that it was blantantly obvious that Fasces was the doctor that three mods could not figure it out.

*and

*and that

Well Vashta and Abge, if you were mafia hypothetically who would you have killed last night.

I would have role-blocked Fasces and killed krellin. Though this isn't that effective as a method as the mafia could would either lie to protect himself or say Warden and say that only the mafia would say otherwise.

However Vashta, whether or not I believe your argument is another story.

You seemed so sure I was lying about being the doc save that it makes me think you believed warden when he claimed doc. On the other hand not once did I think Abge believed Wardens claim, which is why I didn't save warden last night, as I didn't think mafia would target him.

Fasces, if I was sure about you lying I would have voted for you at least once. There was a possibility, not a likely one, that you may have been mafia, it was a small doubt, but I needed to be sure.

given how much time you spent on the issue I have hard time believing it was a 'small doubt'

Because I didn't have enough evidence to put it to rest. I would've had a lot easier te seeing abge and TMW is I could have gotten closure. I don't know why I doubted you, but it kept driving me crazy despite my rational mind saying otherwise. Small things can make you obsess, like a splinter in your foot.

@Fasces

I could justify targeting any of you, so I'm not sure there's any point to that exercise.

1. You were saved - Doc can save anyone - so I'm not sure how that pointed to you, versus just a random stroke of good luck. OBviously the mafia didn't see it as an obvious clue you were the Doc or you would have been dead the next day.
2, I never caught your sly insight....neither did the mafia, or you would have been dead.
3. Wardens claim was obvious, and very recent, and meaningless to the overall discussion. It was *such* a terrible obvious ploy it was almost detrmiental, as it clearly pointed to someone else...but regardless...

"1. You were saved - Doc can save anyone - so I'm not sure how that pointed to you, versus just a random stroke of good luck. OBviously the mafia didn't see it as an obvious clue you were the Doc or you would have been dead the next day."
That's sorta my point, at the time the general consensus was the doc should save himself as much as possible and I was the first mafia target to get saved by the doc. Both indicate that the doc would be saving himself.

"3. Wardens claim was obvious, and very recent, and meaningless to the overall discussion. It was *such* a terrible obvious ploy it was almost detrmiental, as it clearly pointed to someone else...but regardless..."
That's where my confusion arises, since it was such an obvious ploy, why did the mafia kill him?

krellin, I don't remember exactly how it went down, but here's the gist of it.

Fasces really helped out the town by asking who was RB'd. That seems to have flustered the Mafia. He didn't just mention it, though, he made a huge show of it. Maybe he thought it was worth risking his life for or maybe he was hoping if he was loud enough, the doctor would save him. No matter what, though, it should have highlighted the fact that something was up with him. Now, what's the best way to tell if someone is the doctor? Hit him twice in a row or RB and hit him. The mafia didn't do that, which was simply reckless and stupid.

Again, I point out that there was absolutely method to who the Mafia targeted or RB'd. So, I find it hard to understand why you think I'm the Mafia because, imho, they played rather poorly.

Vash - it's not just a matter of "small chance Fasces might be guilty". It was more like Two-bit hooker turning 30 trick a night to get a fix kind of hard-on to discover who was the Doc. You seemed damn neared *obsessed* with having the Doctor revealed..which, HAD HE when you first suggested it long ago..we would have not gotten the last save, and the mafia would probably win

Again, I'm torn between Vash being mafia because his behavior has been focused on causing destruction to the Town, and him being just so ridiculous that he can't possibly be mafia.

I really can't figure out what to think

Because it's in contrast to the thoughtful, coy, methodical Abge, who if he is mafia has hidden in the daylight so well.

absolutely *no* method

Regardless, can you two make up your minds soon. I would much like to be able to go to sleep tonight with this game completed than having to worry about Fasces and krellin losing the game by lynching me.

fasces - I think the mafia killed Warden because....well, who did Warden most want to kill? Abge or Vash? That might tell you why he was killed instead of you or me.

I -- I have appeared to be the leaf in the wind, never settled on a man until near the end - so I'm not an obvious threat to anyone I support Abge, but I've also suspceted and voted for him. It's hard to say which way I would go. Likewise, you have never been an especially loud or strong advocate. Yes, you have had your suspect list, but you have never been forceful about

So maybe Warden was killed because he was feared.

Or maybe Warden was killed because I was roll-blocked and impotent - effectively a vanilla townie - and it was a coin toss.

But I like to think it's because of Warden's choice of target

Final Day Pt II Vote Count I

abgemacht (1): VashtaNeurotic
VashtaNeurotic (1): abgemacht

Currently ABGEMACHT is set to be lynched!

VashtaNeurotic votes abgemacht
abgemacht votes VashtaNeurotic

END votes: 0/3

Day ends in roughly 24 hours.

well Krellin brings up an interesting point. The last save was actually redundant, as the only think it resulted in was having both me and Krellin alive today rather then one or the other.

One way we could experiment is by elected to no lynch today, and see whom the mafia kills tonight.

"Fasces really helped out the town by asking who was RB'd. That seems to have flustered the Mafia. He didn't just mention it, though, he made a huge show of it. Maybe he thought it was worth risking his life for or maybe he was hoping if he was loud enough, the doctor would save him. No matter what, though, it should have highlighted the fact that something was up with him. Now, what's the best way to tell if someone is the doctor? Hit him twice in a row or RB and hit him. The mafia didn't do that, which was simply reckless and stupid. "
In my experience, the doctor generally, for fear of his life, tries to be as quite as possible, hoping the mafia wont notice him and therefore wont kill him.

In the past as mafia I would always target the quitest person in day one for my night 2 kill, and it was consistently the doc and sometimes cop or blue.

Because of this experience, I decided to take the opposite approach for the first few days, by being really loud and essentially making myself look like an expendable role mafia would believe me to not be doc. However I do believe that I slipped a few times, slip meaning accidentally revealing information I couldn't know as a vanilla town.

Maybe my loudness did play into the fact that very few suspected me to be doc, or maybe all those that did suspect me happened to die early.

Abge - nice defense there re: process, the poor process of the mafia, the logic that you would have played mafia better.

This logic does rely on the fact that they thought Fasces was the Doc when they first went after him, as opposed to just the loud guy with a good idea The mafia has seemed focused on taking out leaders - and that day, Fasces was just a loud townie with a good idea. The Doc ("whoever that was") rightfully saved him because he was in danger for making an impact The next day, when fasces faded and was not longer a vocal impact-maker to such an extent, the mafia threat drifted elsewhere. There method - bizarre as it seemed - was focused on taking out "current vocal threats", as opposed to working on methodology to root out role-players.

Yes, this is an argument for you, because it is difficult to think of you as playing so poorly.except in that you needed to coordinate with three others, and may very well have been baning your head against the wall dealing with such as Captainmeme and the other dude, who just didn't see your process. A micro-cosm of the f'ed up life of a Townie trying to come to consensus.

Ahh what the hell:

##VOTE Vashtaneurotic

I'm going to hate myself for not killing you abge, aren't I?

@krellin: Actually until a round or two ago I was vehemently opposed to having the doc reveal himself. However at that time, I felt that it did not really matter whether or not the doctor revealed himself as whether he saved the right person or not, if the town lynched the wrong person, we would lose regardless. The only difference would be that right now there would be three people alive instead of four. I found the idea that the doc would save the right person twice or not get killed himself rather unlikely, so I wanted the information out in the open. Even Warden was asking for the doc to reveal during the day, and krellin, you revealed yourself early in the night, so why is that suspicious that I asked for the doc to reveal under similar circumstances. And if that is the only thing that makes you think I am guilty, then I do not see why you can justify lynching me over abge, who has been avoiding answering fasces questions and claimed that it was obvious Fasces was the doctor when it wasn't.

And krellin, that is why I did not put any faith in you. You were going to vote for me no matter what. Last night it was obvious Fasces was the doctor thanks to Warden, so why would I not secure the demise of the guy who almost killed me last round?

Because keeping krellin alive makes me look really guilty...

Also Fasces, do you really think PE would put a guy he doesn't know and does not really have a forum personality in a position of power, when he could be clever and make the mods the mafia?

@abge: Do you think I would take that risk?