@ND Why do you think it is untrue?

It's a racist theory DO. Do you support racism and racist policies?

ND, on the last page, one person said that black people are less intelligent than white people and another said that white people receive an advantage in society. You find the second racist but not the first?

@ND What makes it racist?

@DO: Because you are stereotyping and generalizing entire populations based on skin color.

@Ghug: What, who said that? Absolutely, if you are saying a group of people are less intelligent based on skin color then that is a racial science/racist statement.

@ND I am born into an upper middle class family. I have a privilege that poor people don't have. I can recognize that. Is this classist?

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." -MLK Jr.

You need to stop judging people based on skin color and based on the content of their character. This why Martin Luther King Jr. is a personal hero of mine.

MLK is up there with Trump for me in terms of my personal heroes.

ND is trolling (I think) and being a white supremacist apologist (i'm sure)...

I'm not sure if they realize that this is the case, self-deception is always a possibility. But it's pretty obviously true in either case.

An argument based on societal class is totally different then one generalizing an entire population based on "white" or skin color.

However, even so, those arguments can be refuted because in the United States (I don't live or study other countries so I am speaking in general about the US) there is something called societal mobility. People can move out of poverty through hard work and ideas. That's why capitalism, the American Dream, and the ideas presented in the Declaration of Independence are so important to counter this marxist/sjw bs baloney.

@Socrates: Great attempt at disinfo and to shoot someone down because you can't counter my argument.

You're denying one of the biggest facts about the racist society we in, aka trivializing one of the biggest problems with the perpetuation of white supremacy. Aka being a white supremacist apologist.

Also, social mobility is very low in the US, and sucks for blacks. But generally just sucks

If you think the United States is a racist sorry then I feel sorry for you. Racism may exist in some places and on a very local and limited scale (there may be individual cases of people being racist towards white people or people being racist towards black people, etc) but it is not widespread and it isn't a big problem. Actually some of the biggest proponents and advocates for racism are sjw's who peddle their racial science theories, i.e. 'white privilege'.

Now, if you were to say that there was institutional racism in the Jim Crow South then I would agree. If you were to say that there was institutional racism in pre-1865 America? I would agree. However, it is not the Jim Crow South and it is not pre-1865 America. To compare today's society to the Jim Crow South or Pre-Civil War America is ludicrous. It is so absurd and ridiculous that it is undeserving of a comment. It would be akin to arguing with ignoramus.

It's 2017 and there is no widespread institutional racism in America.

@"That's why capitalism, the American Dream, and the ideas presented in the Declaration of Independence are so important to counter this marxist/sjw bs baloney."

You should listen to Howard Zinn, he grew up in the 30s, with this american dream. The idea that if you work hard in America you will become well off.

He saw his parents through the great depression working hella hard, and realized the American dream was bullcrap. And then he read some Dickens and realized that he wasn't the first to think about poverty in these terms (or maybe he read dickens first).

He then spent his entire life rewriting American history to tell a story which was more true to reality.

@" Anyone who advocates for it is arguing that all white people, simply for being born white, that live in the 'West' are privileged. I.E. they get societal benefits because they are white. "


I don't think you understand this. Even close to reality.

I have a trans friend who describes privilege really nicely. It is like a computer game, where you have a certain amount of points of 'different' to spend. And the more different you are the worse people in the street will treat you.

You could spend them on tatoos, or spikey hair, or goth-style clothing. But if you're born black, or trans, or poor, or you grow up to be poorly educated, or suffer some disability, then you're playing the game with a worse set of stats. You have less privilege because you automatically have less freedom to spend points on being 'different' without people judging you.

You may infact have to spend a lot of effort every day on passing as more normal in order to not get the negative effects. Playing the game as white is like playing on easy mode. That doesn't mean life can't be hard for white people, it just means that it is easier (all other things being equal).

Take another example, men don't have to worry about being raped walking home at night. Most men don't even think about it. Most women i know would ask a friend to text them to make sure they are ok, because it is a constant fear. That fear makes their life more difficult.

Just the presence of that constant fear changes how free they are to enjoy life (pursuit of happiness, that's worth something to you right?). And never having that fear is a privilege which men gain just by being born.

It doesn't mean we're judging them for having things easier, or that we're discriminating against men for having this. It just means that they have it easy. And never having had to worry about it, just means you're more likely to not see it as a privilege.

This isn't discrimination, it is acknowledging that there is discrimination exists. And if it affects every interaction you have, from job employers, to government agencies, to teachers, to lovers.

I am cishet, educated, wealthy, intelligent, healthy, able-bodied, white. I lucked out in many ways.

@"It's 2017 and there is no widespread institutional racism in America."

Do you say that as an expert? You don't suffer from racism from the institutions you interact with therefore it doesn't exist?

Lord Jesus please help me.

Lord Jesus was socially aware, Nd. He would fucking despise you, and your entitled "nothing to see here" BS.

“Do you say that as an expert?”
-I do actually. As a student and master of history I realize that America of 2017 is far different than pre-1865 America or Jim Crow America. That should be obvious to all.

“You should listen to Howard Zinn”
-As someone who has completed a M.A. in History I can tell you two things. 1) I have read Howard Zinn and 2) Howard Zinn is a complete hack. A complete and total hack.

“He then spent his entire life rewriting American history to tell a story which was more true to reality.”
-Revisionist Historians are horrible. With few exceptions I view most revisionists as hacks. I have read plenty of different revisionist historians.

“It is like a computer game, where you have a certain amount of points of 'different' to spend. And the more different you are the worse people in the street will treat you.”
-Your analogy is illogical. The reason being, is that in America everyone is born with the same amount of ‘points’. Everyone has an opportunity to succeed in a public education system. Everyone has an opportunity to apply for 4 year universities and apply for scholarships. Everyone has a chance to get a High School diploma. Everyone has access to public works and security. Everyone has access to democratically elected government agencies. Most employers are Equal opportunity employers and everyone who applies to those jobs have an equal opportunity. I mean, I could spend all day listing this stuff out, but it probably doesn't matter. It will be ignored.

“But if you're born black, or trans, or poor, or you grow up to be poorly educated, or suffer some disability, then you're playing the game with a worse set of stats.”
-Wrong, wrong, wrong. Everyone is born with the same amount of stats and everyone succeeds or fails based on their own individual choices.

“Take another example, men don't have to worry about being raped walking home at night. Most men don't even think about it. Most women i know would ask a friend to text them to make sure they are ok, because it is a constant fear. That fear makes their life more difficult.”
-Wrong. Men and Women are equal in society. On College campuses men and women can fall prey to sexual predators.

You are obviously entitled to your opinions, but I find them faulty and illogical. As I said there may be some localized institutional racism, but broadly speaking America is not a racist society. We started to do away with that during the Civil War and during the Civil Rights Era. Since then, we have worked to continue ending institutional racism.

@Helen: "Lord Jesus was socially aware, Nd. He would fucking despise you, and your entitled "nothing to see here" BS."

What a sick statement. If you have read the New Testament you would know that Jesus loved everyone.

Jesus hates Nd.

Oh sorry yes I re-read it and I realise that Jesus loves white supremacists, Jesus loves fascists, Jesus loves racists.

It's true. Such love.

@Nd: Do you think it is a shame the North won the Civil War?

You behave and speak as such.

Wow, I don't know how you got that impression? I have spoken about how it is a good thing that institutional racism was defeated in pre-1865 America and during the Civil Rights Era. I said that MLK was a hero of mine along with President Trump.

It's not my problem if your reading comprehension skills are poor.

The North winning the war was a good thing. I am glad that the Southern Democrats were defeated during the Civil War.

IMHO, Poverty is often self-inflicted. Now before some of you jump on me, let me explain.

Gorwing up where I did (eastern Kentucky), I saw poverty every day. the difference between that poverty, and what I saw in South Boston (where I moved as a tennager...culture shock much?) was that one was provincial, and that almost everyone was the same, but we were 'okay' with that. There were not a lot of choices to help us get out of that lower-income class. We were in it, and that was our lot in life, but life was still MUCH easier there than say in, Southie.

In South Boston, poverty was very much self-inflicted There were lots of options living in that area to get ahead, but you had to put the effort into it.

I grew up with about 13 friends that we hung out with, my brother, myself and 13 other guys. 5 of us went to the Army, 1 to college, and 9 stayed home. Of those 9, at last count 6 were and 3 in jail. The one that went to college, dropped out after a semester, and was in jail last I head.

Of the 3 who went to the Army, 1 died in the military, the other 4 all have improved their lot in life by using the military to launch themselves into something better, such as college, or a good job afterwards, or even retiring form the military. NONE of them went back to Southie to live though. Visit? sure, sometimes, but never to live again They had escaped, and they were staying the heck out of there.

So, this is why I think a LOT of poverty is self-inflicted, because many of those people continued to make bad decisions, compounded on new bad choices, which just really leads to a crappy life.

My parents are both immigrants, and had 5 kids All 5 kids did well, all graduated college (except 1 who died in their 20s) One sister is a MD, one a teacher (masters degree) one is a Nurse Practitioner (hope i spelled that correctly) I used to be a Logistics analyst for a large transportation company, til they sent my job away, and went into business for myself, and am doing well.

However, one thing I recall is my parents were VERY conservative in many ways, but always kept their kids nose on the path Slight deviations were allowed, but not for long. a B on a report card was met with a severe tongue-lashing, or worse at times. a C? umm, Cs didnt exist in our house, and our parents made sure of CONSTANT contact with teachers. So, my parents, even though not well-educated, were very good people who did their best to improve the position of their children. Unlike many parents to today, who SAY such things, most parents do not sacrifice everything for their kids like mine did, and I will always be thankful for that steadfast dedication

OH ya, and my dad showed me how a real bavarian makes beer.....I still do that today =P

There is a lot going on in this thread, but I wanted to, if it is not too much trouble, take a brief sidebar. ND did your masters in history specialize in US History? And if so, was there a time period or theme that you focused on? Also, who are some historians who you feel have helped shape your world view?

I am asking because your perspective is so much different than any other historian that I know. So, I find it very fascinating. Sorry, if this delves into the too personal.

@"-Wrong. Men and Women are equal in society. On College campuses men and women can fall prey to sexual predators.

You are obviously entitled to your opinions, but I find them faulty and illogical."

Oh, you find them illogical and faulty?

You're right, men can suffer from sexual assault, and be raped. That doesn't mean that fear it every time the go home after dark. Which is precisely what i said.

Why don't you talk to some men and some women and find out if your claims are infact true. I think you might be surprised to find the levels of fear among men and women are in fact not equal. You haven't listened to or refuted my claim that women are more likely to fear going home in the dark. I didn't even say more likely to be raped (though i suspect they are) I talked about fear. So you just ignored that.

I believe you will find that the real world disagrees with you.

I'm glad you have an MA in history, but that doesn't mean you aren't the hack. I don't know i haven't read what you have written, so i can't tell, but you seriously seem to have missed a lot of what is currently going on. Denying that there are any differences between people is really simplistic... reality defies simplification.

I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of the bullshit you came up with, as this is the most obvious case where you are wrong. If you can't come back with something better than this you're clearly just trolling.

Helon is probably a troll 100 points, only 13 points in play. Made this account to make certain people mute 'it'

Orthaic, men can certainly fear just as much as women, if they are in an area they should not be. Getting shot/stabbed/mugged is equally 'sucky'...lol Just playing devils advocate there though

I certainly have been in areas that I felt very uncomfortable in Not making a comparison, just an observation

@orathaic

quoting Howard Zinn... you're being unfair in your analysis, you're only looking at one side of it with an anecdote.

first of all, the man at his time of death was worth 39.1 million. so if you want to argue historical economic discrimination: yes, i understand that, but that has rarely coincided with modern times.

for an alternative anecdote: look at Larry Elder's story with his father, when HE was in the Jim Crow south.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0rh0RWNFK8



onto everything else:

"I don't think you understand this. Even close to reality.

I have a trans friend who describes privilege really nicely. It is like a computer game, where you have a certain amount of points of 'different' to spend. And the more different you are the worse people in the street will treat you."

this is an argument from authority. I have a transgender friend named Tracy who goes to OU, even TrPrado knows her. she's actually very libertarian/conservative in many senses, and her argument is that yes, transgender people face discrimination, but to view this as a positive good for non-transgender people is ludicrous.

if someone gets murdered, i don't have non-murdered privilege. i don't have some added benefit by a negative effect to another person.

thinking of privilege as points that one possesses is an entirely intellectually benign claim.

1. there is no equating a negative detraction towards one, as a positive towards another. life is not a zero sum game.

2. there is no quantifiable measurement of privilege, only a vague idea of what it means, and it is often more of a club to be wielded than a concept to be studied.



"You could spend them on tatoos, or spikey hair, or goth-style clothing. But if you're born black, or trans, or poor, or you grow up to be poorly educated, or suffer some disability, then you're playing the game with a worse set of stats. You have less privilege because you automatically have less freedom to spend points on being 'different' without people judging you."

and here's where the claim of positive "points" fails. you use this as "less freedom to spend points"

what does this imply? well SURELY everyone wants equal freedom to spend privilege points.

but there are two ways of achieving this: maximizing individual liberty and giving everyone equal rights under the law: or to de-privilege the supposed "privileged" classes, which is a much more common assumption for people thinking of things as zero-sum.

and as for "on being 'different' without people judging you."

sorry, but when you want to restrict this, that's called thought policing. No thanks




"You may infact have to spend a lot of effort every day on passing as more normal in order to not get the negative effects. Playing the game as white is like playing on easy mode. That doesn't mean life can't be hard for white people, it just means that it is easier (all other things being equal)."

this is a massive equivocation fallacy. you make it seem like "all else equal" blacks have it harder than whites.

well let's suppose this is true, but you're massively omitting ANY analysis on actual cultural differences in different communities. when the single motherhood rate in democrat controlled cities from 1970 to 2015 jumped from 25% to 70%, was that do to racism? or was that a cultural shift?? affirmative action giving more top black students access to ivy league schools is also terrible policy. the failure rate of black students in ivy league institutions is abnormally high: if they were allowed to go to a different university with slightly lower standards (as a meritocracy would allow) they'd be able to flourish. artificial changes perceived as fighting racism often fail when racism isn't the actual cause of problems.

secondly, there's very little evidence of white privilege. i'm going to link another video down below that elucidates on this more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrxZRuL65wQ

institutions of white privilege? well as far as GOVERNMENT institution goes, we had college quotas, which after eventually being struck down turned into taking points away from asian kids on their SATs while adding points for black and hispanic kids (while whites remained stagnant).

we have specific hate crime laws, some of which in california were seen as slanted against Whites.

we have per capita many more tax dollars going to black and hispanic families in the form of welfare, a government program that taxes everyone equally.


if you MEAN a SOCIETAL PRIVILEGE... well, yes that's entirely possible, and very true in some places. if i go to some small backwater town in alabama and i'm black, they won't take too kindly to me. but at the same time, society is not homogeneous, and humans don't act with a hive mind: if i go to hollywood or harlem or number of other liberal hotbeds, being white is no advantage. JJ abrams when casting star wars episode 7:

"We wrote these characters but when we went to cast it, one of the things I had felt, having been to the Emmys a couple times — you look around that room and you see the whitest fucking room in the history of time. Its just unbelievably white. And I just thought, we’re casting this show and we have an opportunity to do anything we want, why not cast the show with actors of color?"

does that sound like a societal privilege for whites? no.

because at the end of the day: GENERALIZING IS BAD.

treat people like individuals



"Take another example, men don't have to worry about being raped walking home at night. Most men don't even think about it. Most women i know would ask a friend to text them to make sure they are ok, because it is a constant fear. That fear makes their life more difficult."

i can understand this, it's basic biology. we have a sexual dichotomy so that 50% of the population is more prone to sexual desires and the other 50% is physically much smaller.

do you have a way to reconcile this biological difference? because i do. it's called concealed carry. you have to love firearms: they're great equalizers. an 100 pound woman with a Glock is holding her own against a 200 pound man.




"Just the presence of that constant fear changes how free they are to enjoy life (pursuit of happiness, that's worth something to you right?). And never having that fear is a privilege which men gain just by being born."

just because you have fear doesn't mean that you're not free. this is stupid, it's like FDR saying we need people to have "freedom from hunger," but even MORE stupid.

1. freedom is only morally good, if it does not restrict another's freedom. this is just a baseline statement on freedom. my rights end where yours begin

2. fear is subjective. some people are more naturally fearful. this is no fault of anyone else, it could be hormonal and entirely natural.

3. fear is unsubsidizable. there is nothing i as an individual can DO to make you less afraid. the rapists and murderers that you fear, are not me. you do not get to generalize me in with them, simply because i have a penis. that is bigotry




"It doesn't mean we're judging them for having things easier, or that we're discriminating against men for having this. It just means that they have it easy. And never having had to worry about it, just means you're more likely to not see it as a privilege."

it's not a privilege. this is not zero sum. this is not a PLUS. if i accept your premise in it's entirety about institutional bigotry (which is wrong) then i say you're STILL biased by the way you talk about privilege.

privilege assumes we're getting something extra.

PRIVILEGE:
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.

if we're free, we're free, with all of our rights and liberties. meanwhile minorities are not free, with all of their rights and liberties.

if this is your argument: PRIVILEGE IS THE WRONG WORD.



"This isn't discrimination, it is acknowledging that there is discrimination exists. And if it affects every interaction you have, from job employers, to government agencies, to teachers, to lovers."

job employers: affirmative action hiring is an institutional privilege for minorities.
government agencies: see above
teachers: i'm sorry but Oklahoma is the worst state in the union for teachers and we're mostly white. if you're talking about the inner cities and the problems with education and black teenagers graduation rates:
those are predominantly, 95%+ Democrat controlled.


"I am cishet, educated, wealthy, intelligent, healthy, able-bodied, white. I lucked out in many ways."

i don't give a shit what groups you're a part of. i really don't. i'm going to treat you as an individual, and i expect to be treated as an individual.

i am not part of a "white class," no, i just have white skin. i am not part of an "able-bodied privileged group," no, i just am an individual, with no disabilities.

stop trying to put me into groups. honestly. i don't actually like all of her philosophical ideas, but here's something to consider:



"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities."
- Ayn Rand

I sometimes find the tactics of different sides trying to get their point across quite enjoyable to read.