My friend Koil and I have been having a debate about 911. We were going to just do it via email, but then we thought a forum would be good because then other people could join in. We would have used Whirlpool.net but they don't allow discussion of this topic anymore.I hope you guys don't mind if we use this forum. I believe we have a few truthers on this site. Koil would appreciate the support.

Koil as you know, I disagree with you but as I am at work I will respond to your points later on. Cheers.

#1 Reason to think otherwise:

Seriously, this is the US government we are talking about. A conspiracy this large could never be kept quiet.

#2 Reason:

You would have to believe a very large number of said conspirators, all of whom have kept this quiet, are truly evil people. What are the odds of finding a sufficiently large group of evil, highly secretive people, and having them all working on this one project?

Get a life, and start accepting reality.

"Get a life, and start accepting reality. "

Play nice now :)

People who believe this Truther nonsense make me angry. I see no reason to play nice.

You going to back up any of those claims with evidence or explanation?

@dipplayer2004

I must say I agree with you. How could the government orchestrate such a massive conspiracy and get away with it? It strikes me as totally implausible.

The downside of this argument though is that it borders on being "an argument from incredulity". Extraordinary things do happen sometimes that seem implausible.

I am hoping we can discuss publicly verifiable facts and see which of these either support the truthers' case or else invalidate the points raised by the truthers.

Koil said: " Never before 9-11-2001 or since has a skyscraper collapsed due to fire.'

Do you have a source for this?

Moreover even if this is true: is this point particularly strong. I would argue not. There is a first for everything isn't there. This event was unprecedented.

I get the argument from incredulity. Given human nature though, I'd have an easier time believing the wizard Gandalf brought the towers down than that thousands of government employees have kept this massive conspiracy quiet.

1. I think the nukes dropped on Japan are a hoax. Never have atoms been split as a means for destroying a city.

2. So? It's been said the government knew this kind of attack would happen, they just didn't know when or who.

3. Coincidence.

4. Standard procedure, I think.

5. http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Cellphone_calls_faked

"What are the odds of finding a sufficiently large group of evil, highly secretive people, and having them all working on this one project?"

Um... the official theory *does* in fact involve a sufficiently large group of evil, highly secretive people and having them all working on this one project for year and a half with such operational security that no one (so the claims go) outside of those directly involved had any idea about it. In addition to the 19 hijackers who actually pulled off the attack, you have at least one and possibly as many as 3 other would-have-been hijackers and an unknkown number of support personnel involved. Many "truther" conspiracies would've needed to involve even fewer people with knowledge of the overall plan if you believe there were no hijackers and the airplanes were remote controlled.

The *true* version of events does require a few dozen conspirators, tops. Sure. But it also was not entirely quiet--from what I've read there were intelligence reports that "something" was going down. The CIA had warned of possible hijack plans, in the US. It is remarkable that they had 19 or 20 demented suicide bombers to draw on, but those apparently are not in short supply in the f-ed up Islamic world.

But any "truther" version requires a cast of thousands. Who set the explosives? Who got four planes to their targets? Who was involved in the planning? The funding? The execution? What ideology were they serving?

I see I've opened a Hornets nest here Flash. Not sure if its the way to go as 99% of people find it to hard to wrap their brains around it without being retarded. I've posted my top 5, and you are to confront them. Then I am to respond correct? Others can put forward valid points, but if its plain BS. You won't be entertained. As I am suppose to be working I'll come back to this tonight OK.

PS. I need no support Flash. The reality, or lack of it shall speak for it self.

"Seriously, this is the US government we are talking about. A conspiracy this large could never be kept quiet."
I personally think this is the weakest argument the non-truthers have. The fact that the theory is circulating suggests that they didn't entirely cover it up.

As for the two arguments. Here is the best youtube video I've seen explain both sides:

Non-Truthers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFJa9WUy5QI

Truthers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98

That said there are probably better videos for both sides out there, I don't really give a shit about this topic and haven't done any research on it. Personally I don't believe it was an inside job, but I could probably be swayed if someone gave a convincing argument.

The funny thing about covert operations is that a lot of times, most of the people involved in them don't know they're part of it.

"But any "truther" version requires a cast of thousands."

There are a great variety of truther theories, and while I agree they would probably involve more people than the official theory. No truther theory, though, would require a cast of thousands. Let's pick apart your list, for instance:

"Who set the explosives?" - I'm not sure about the weight or bulk of the explosives that would've been necessary to bring the towers down, but I imagine a team of 3-4 people could've wired up both buildings over the preceding weekend.

"Who got four planes to their targets?" - Four people with remote control gear that would override the pilot controls. The hard part here, I imagine, is not finding those four people but figuring out how to install it on the different models of aircraft involved. These engineers designing the remote control systems would not need to have any knowledge of the overall plot, however. Next difficulty would be installing the gear on the planes - but that wouldn't be too difficult with the lax airport security at the time, especially if you have a few weeks to do it in.

"Who was involved in the planning?" - you would probably need some kind of "project manager" (for want of a better term) to recruit the team, make sure everyone is on the same page, dole out the money as needed, etc. All told, we have a team of less than fifteen people involved at this point. If you want to be really safe, you'd also hire a clean-up crew of 2 or 3 people to murder the RC and Demo teams on 9/12 (they would not need any knowledge of the actual operation). That's still less than 19.

"The funding? The execution? What ideology were they serving?" - None of these require additional people. The "official theory" took less than a million dollars to pull off; this theory (remote controlled aircraft, explosives in the buildings) could require less money and a shockingly minimal amount of time if you can find the remote control technology on the cheap (for instance, if you had an 'in' with a company or institution that had already perfected it). Anyone with the will and a couple million dollars in the bank could've pulled this off for any of a number of reasons if they really wanted to.

Now I actually do believe that 19 Arab men hijacked 4 passenger airliners and crashed them into buildings on 9/11/01 (I am answering your questions to demonstrate that "truther" theories do not require anything near a cast of thousands). However, I think there are still tons and tons of unanswered questions about what happened that day and the years before and since (for instance, why was the owner of the flight school in Venice Florida where some of the hijackers trained quietly released after being caught red-handed smuggling large quantities of illegal drugs into the country a few months ago?). There's a lot of information the general public will never be allowed to know - but we have every right to. When you have a secretive and lying government like we have, "trutherism" will be a perfectly normal and natural phenomenon. It's the people who believe everything the government says is the absolute and unquestionable truth that have me scratching my head.

Koil you will have to refer to me as spyman on this site.


This is how I suggest you build your case. Pick an aspect of the conspiracy theory, and then provide some facts to support the claim.

For example some truthers say that the Twin Towers (and some buildings near by) were brought down by explosives (the same way the tall building sometimes are deliberately demolished). You could discuss the facts relevant to this point.

As I see it the argument can have two main strands:

1. The buildings could not have collapsed from the planes alone. There must have been additional factors. For example, you could argue that the buildings were constructed to standup to a plane crash.

2. There is direct evidence that the buildings were destroyed by planted explosives. For example the way the buildings "crumbled", and the speed of the collapse. And alleged presence of tjhermite.

That sort of thing... you know... evidence. :)

Is it accepted now that the jet on its way to the White House was brought down by the USAF or is that still being disputed?

That is still called a "paranoid conspiracy theory".

Watch Loose change 2nd edition and make up your own minds. Ask who benefited from it?
Loose change 2nd edition can be watched on youtube or google.
9/11 was a tragedy for the United states and the views on both sides are strong but the evidence definately points towards a conspiracy. And now we are all at war with Al Queida a war against terror (A war that will never end) Might be worth watching 1984 as well :) have a nice day :)

next time, please title this thread with "Tin Foil Beanie Alert" so that I may better prepare myself.

KoiL you have selected the five key reasons you believe 9/11 is a conspiracy. I don't think reasons you have given are even remotely compelling; you are going to need to give provide further explanation.

The whole world witnessed those airplanes fly into the twin towers by declared enemies long-standing enemies of the United States, Al Qaeda. And its success was rejoiced by Islamicists around the world.This was not the first terrorist attack by Al Qaeda and it has not been the last. True, it has been the most successful - spectacularly successful, but it was all achievable given the organization's resources. Indeed it is almost surprising that a similar stunt has not been attempted before. Al Qaeda had a motive and it had the means. On the face of they are the obvious choice. If you are going to look elsewhere for a reason for 9/11 - you are going to need a pretty special reason. If you going to point the finger at the US government you are going to need an extraordinary motive and back that up with extraordinary evidence.

Even if we accept all of your five points as true - the argument put forward so far does not even come close.

1. Has a building of the same type of structure as the twin towers ever had a plane as large as a 767 ever fly into it before? No. So while you say that it was unprecedented that the building should have collapsed, we are dealing with an unprecedented situation.

I hope you will delve further into this issue. I understand that a lot of claims have been made about the specifics of the building collapse that support the conspiracy theory, but I also understand that each of these points have convincing counter arguments. We have discussed these before but you have dismissed these counter arguments as being wrong because "they support the government line". I don't think that is enough of a reason to disregard the counter arguments. No matter how powerful a government is there are still facts and principles that can be demonstrated to either be true or false entirely independently of the most Orwellian of governments. Thus if the melting point of steel is 1450 degree Celsius - then this is a fact regardless of what the government says.

If we are to have a sensible debate about this topic we need to stick to verifiable facts, and not simply retreat behind "that's what Big Brother wants you to believe" just because an inconvenient truth rears its head.

2. Coincidences happen all the time. It is a moderately interesting fact but it is NOT extraordinary evidence.

3. Another coincidence.

4. You must be referring to the Pentagon attack and not "all the attacked sties" as you say. There is plenty of footage of the Twin Towers attack. Was footage really confiscated? Has anyone come forward and said, "hey I got the missile on camera but then the FBI came and took my camera!" Even if this point were true, it still does not constitute EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE. It would be interesting and I would like to know more but that is it. By itself it does not make any sense to extrapolate some grand conspiracy theory.

5. I don't understand the relevance of this point. Could you elaborate please?

Your turn KoiL.

i dont even see the point of arguing this. if people still believe the government-approved propaganda about 9/11 then they are retarded and cant be helped. did you watch that youtube video 9/11: a conspiracy theory? i am too lazy to think of an argument of my own so here is a transcript, enjoy:

On the morning of September 11, 2001, 19 men armed with boxcutters directed by a man on dialysis in a cave fortress halfway around the world using a satellite phone and a laptop directed the most sophisticated penetration of the most heavily-defended airspace in the world, overpowering the passengers and the military combat-trained pilots on 4 commercial aircraft before flying those planes wildly off course for over an hour without being molested by a single fighter interceptor.

These 19 hijackers, devout religious fundamentalists who liked to drink alcohol, snort cocaine, and live with pink-haired strippers, managed to knock down 3 buildings with 2 planes in New York, while in Washington a pilot who couldn’t handle a single engine Cessna was able to fly a 757 in an 8,000 foot descending 270 degree corskscrew turn to come exactly level with the ground, hitting the Pentagon in the budget analyst office where DoD staffers were working on the mystery of the 2.3 trillion dollars that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had announced “missing” from the Pentagon’s coffers in a press conference the day before, on September 10, 2001.

Luckily, the news anchors knew who did it within minutes, the pundits knew within hours, the Administration knew within the day, and the evidence literally fell into the FBI’s lap. But for some reason a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists demanded an investigation into the greatest attack on American soil in history.

The investigation was delayed, underfunded, set up to fail, a conflict of interest and a cover up from start to finish. It was based on testimony extracted through torture, the records of which were destroyed. It failed to mention the existence of WTC7, Able Danger, Ptech, Sibel Edmonds, OBL and the CIA, and the drills of hijacked aircraft being flown into buildings that were being simulated at the precise same time that those events were actually happening. It was lied to by the Pentagon, the CIA, the Bush Administration and as for Bush and Cheney…well, no one knows what they told it because they testified in secret, off the record, not under oath and behind closed doors. It didn’t bother to look at who funded the attacks because that question is of “little practical significance“. Still, the 9/11 Commission did brilliantly, answering all of the questions the public had (except most of the victims’ family members’ questions) and pinned blame on all the people responsible (although no one so much as lost their job), determining the attacks were “a failure of imagination” because “I don’t think anyone could envision flying airplanes into buildings ” except the Pentagon and FEMA and NORAD and the NRO.

The DIA destroyed 2.5 TB of data on Able Danger, but that’s OK because it probably wasn’t important.

The SEC destroyed their records on the investigation into the insider trading before the attacks, but that’s OK because destroying the records of the largest investigation in SEC history is just part of routine record keeping.

NIST has classified the data that they used for their model of WTC7′s collapse, but that’s OK because knowing how they made their model of that collapse would “jeopardize public safety“.

The FBI has argued that all material related to their investigation of 9/11 should be kept secret from the public, but that’s OK because the FBI probably has nothing to hide.

This man never existed, nor is anything he had to say worthy of your attention, and if you say otherwise you are a paranoid conspiracy theorist and deserve to be shunned by all of humanity. Likewise him, him, him, and her. (and her and her and him).

Osama Bin Laden lived in a cave fortress in the hills of Afghanistan, but somehow got away. Then he was hiding out in Tora Bora but somehow got away. Then he lived in Abottabad for years, taunting the most comprehensive intelligence dragnet employing the most sophisticated technology in the history of the world for 10 years, releasing video after video with complete impunity (and getting younger and younger as he did so), before finally being found in a daring SEAL team raid which wasn’t recorded on video, in which he didn’t resist or use his wife as a human shield, and in which these crack special forces operatives panicked and killed this unarmed man, supposedly the best source of intelligence about those dastardly terrorists on the planet. Then they dumped his body in the ocean before telling anyone about it. Then a couple dozen of that team’s members died in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.

This is the story of 9/11, brought to you by the media which told you the hard truths about JFK and incubator babies and mobile production facilities and the rescue of Jessica Lynch.

I still disagree, Tolstoy (and I'm glad to hear you are sane). The Federal government doesn't do anything without triple the manpower, triple the expense, and triple the paperwork. There may be unexplained details, and there are undoubtedly things that have happened since that time that for which we lack the full story. But there is nowhere near enough reason to believe that 9/11 was an American act.

Ok here we go. I'll touch on a few things openers have started with then get to the points I think are still unanswered sufficiently for an open minded person such as myself to lend belief in, or be proven otherwise through evidence, or to be specific are still too grey to be considered fact by learned professionals.

dipplayer2004 entry of 03:45. Since you are so flippant you can find your own links OK. In answer to your statement #1. About an inability to keep that big a secret I offer this: The Manhattan Project created to produce a nuclear bomb in 1939 was hidden from the public yet thousands of people were involved. They even built a new town to house them in. Yet no one knew what it was for. Because everyone except a hand full of people were given only little pieces of the puzzle to solve. History would reveal that there was also a Russian spy at the very top of the research (FUCHS) yet it took the Russians a further four years after Trinity on July 16, 1945 to successfully detonate it's bomb codenamed First Lightning on 29 August 1949, at Semipalatinsk, Kazakh SSR. #2 Reason. Along with yourself your assuming I believe these people were evil. Were the people at the heart of the Manhattan Project evil? I've read a good number were left feeling that way given the results of its 'success'. Oh you can include Einstein amongst them. I don't think they were evil. Therefore ipso facto to my argument on your first point. Btw my grasp on reality is fine. How's yours look'n?

I'll use this moment to say I won't be answering any further emotionally charged questions. There distractive Spyman, and I'd rather stick to what we had agreed here as too how we would move forward.

spyman: entry of 03:56. If the above entry has not been sufficient I'll add this excerpt from Wikipedia. Please tell me upfront if this source is unacceptable (with some people even a dictionary isn't proof of how to spell). " The Manhattan Project began modestly in 1939, but grew to employ more than 130,000 people and cost nearly US$2 billion (Twice the GNP of the US in1940!!!)( about $26 billion as of 2013[1]). Over 90% of the cost was for building factories and producing the fissionable materials, with less than 10% for development and production of the weapons. Research and production took place at more than 30 sites across the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada. Let me enter that figure again. 130,000 people across three countries. All but a small few knowing what it is their working towards.
GNP figures from http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/us-real-gdp-and-gnp-19291950.html
All passed in Congress and kept a secret! Gandalf indeed!

Also Spyman you wouldn't be you without dropping this one in " Moreover even if this is true: is this point particularly strong. I would argue not. There is a first for everything isn't there. This event was unprecedented." Blind in the face of fact hahaha. Can you save me some time on that one. It's a no brainer really! Or tell me to come back to it OK. Running out of time here :- / On second thoughts I will open with this point tomorrow.

Tolstoy & Fasces349. Thank you for your input so far & links. I will answer your points ASAP. Till then I recommend you all get acquainted with http://www.newamericancentury.org/ I have noticed they have removed an entry made mid '95 (how convenient yes) which remained till at least the end of 2001 where the Hawks of American politics stated they needed "A Pearl Harbour like scenario to motivate the American public into action" It was a part of the opening statements and bluff about what they stood for. btw all the signatories from Bush to Wolfawotever, Cheney blah blah are all on it. Reading that in 1997 was when I first started questioning political foreign policy. I made a screen shot of it, or saved it somehow, so I'll need to dig it up, as it goes a long way I believe to showing it was at the forefront of the main players minds. The minds who became the leaders of the US after Clinton.

NigeeBaby I recall recently something about an admission. Do you wish to widen the topic? Frankly I'd rather know why there isn't more, a lot more of the "plane in the hole" This makes me recall that of all the 93odd people on record who said they saw the 2nd plane hit. Now none can now be sure of it. There is a video of a disc hitting building 1(the second hit), and as all video evidence has been confiscated (Bar the guy in Venezuela fighting extradition on trumped up charges who has the only footage from that angle). More to come on that one. it's truly out there. It's believed by Truthers that the media videos are doctored, and that that vid is their big proof.

dannysparkes. I'm a bit devil's advocate here also mate OK. I do favour the Truthers thus far only because the Govt/Media line has too many holes in it. Purdon the pun. I remember a 60mins report around July 2000/ 2001 where this Arab guy they went to interview drove them around an Arab city in a taxi (Arab cover:) who said "you can expect it soon". "Where" the interviewer asks. "New York, Washington, the CIA we will strike at your heart" I've been trying to find that episode for years with no luck. I'll try harder. It was US 60mins viewed in Australia. Anyway fact is...
... as well read as Spyman is this whole idea started because, as of March 2013 he was unaware that 3 buildings were destroyed on Sept. 11. I've started asking more people I know and not ONE of them knew about it. Not that I'm surprised.
Loose Change 1 was very good. Loose Change 2 plays on Truthers paranoia a bit too much. Thou the money trail is worth noting.

ghug. I've been side tracked tonight with my start, but I will supply support to my argument tomorrow OK. Starting with why building 1,2 & 7. Which remain the only steel fabricated skyscrapers to collapse due to fire, or to collapse full stop!

My next argument is this: the US media and the Democrat Party, both of which despised George W. Bush, and did everything in their power to discredit him and to undermine support for "his war" in Iraq, would have loved, LOVED the opportunity to bring him down with this. If there was any shred of evidence that this nonsense was even close to being defensible, you don't believe that they would have used it as the ultimate stick to beat him with? Seriously? They repeated the lie that Bush led us into war on false pretenses so many times that people believe it. You don't think they would have stooped so low as to use this, if they thought there was any basis for it?

The conspiracy is that Osama Bin Laden was a CIA tactician and was trained and funded by the US prior to these attacks.

The US government probably had some knowledge that an attack might take place, but they probably receive too many reports like this to act on each one.

Anything else (explosions, orchestration, missiles) is pure paranoia.

"The conspiracy is that Osama Bin Laden was a CIA tactician and was trained and funded by the US prior to these attacks."

I am pretty sure that it is uncontroversial fact that what became eventually Al Qaeda did receive support from the USA during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. George Friedman (Strator) says that the American's provided a lot Saudi's (and other adventurers looking to support the Islamic cause) fake identification papers so that they could join the Jihad against the Russians, but when the Russian's pulled out the American's lost interest and withdrew their support, leaving a lot of people stranded and pissed off with America (Source: America's Secret War by George Friedman).

typo.. what *eventually became Al Qaeda

spyman: 1. "Has a building of the same type of structure as the twin towers ever had a plane as large as a 767 ever fly into it before? No. So while you say that it was unprecedented that the building should have collapsed, we are dealing with an unprecedented situation."

Cough, cough. If you bothered to watch more SBS in the last 2 months you would have seen that they have played the recorded history of the making of the Towers. Where architects gloat that it's so strong that " we designed it to be hit by a fully loaded 707"

"Was footage really confiscated? Has anyone come forward and said, "hey I got the missile on camera but then the FBI came and took my camera!" Even if this point were true, it still does not constitute EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE. It would be interesting and I would like to know more but that is it. By itself it does not make any sense to extrapolate some grand conspiracy theory."

Yes. In fact they were already on their doorsteps moments after the event requesting all video surveillance footage for the day. One distinctly is from the petrol station across the highway opposite the Pentagon. As outlined & verballed by the cashier at the terminal that day. Another archive hunt I guess to add validity to my statement. This is what irks me about counter-claims. All your work has been done for you. In this case all well oiled, and packed by NBC ABC & CBS. Any counter point I put forward I need to hunt for supporting facts which is fine, but when one needs evidence that was placed on the web yet somehow disappears. It becomes fuel to your fire of disbelief. I know that appears lame yet it still holds truth. Unless of course you also deny governments remove content it feels it to be unlawful. China ringing any bells here?

To give you a hint of where I'm taking this spyman. The power behind the government & head parts of it plan a mock exercise that mimics the events of that day. One that involves all the players given the magnitude. Civil, Military CIA, FBI blah blah. The only people who are left to think it's the real thing are the terrorists. Then at the 11th hour it all goes live, and is left to play out. All the doors are left wide open for them. unimpeded by a normal military response. And to the people on the ground free (through immediate acts by the President) are left to rape the countries economy, and it's Laws.

Till tomorrow :)