I genuinely want to know, Zmaj.

I do.

If it gives Putin a warm, fuzzy feeling, that's fine, I don't care one way or the other...

That was most out of nowhere thing I've ever heard...either there's a really, really horrible secret, or else, well, it was an interesting troll ride.



And if nothing else, if the Stalinist IS checking in...

He supposedly is never wrong--I'm anxious for an answer. For someone who always claims they have facts to back their position up and will stoop to calling others names if they dare disagree with their perfect insight, either this must be astonishingly true or hilariously false.

Either way--that was one of the more interesting things I've heard anyone say on this forum all year...

To be fair Churchill was a racist, made many mistakes in his career (Gallipoli for example), and I think some of his policies in WW2 led to the death of millions of Indians. This is all of course without mentioning the Dresden bombings

Hm. OK, I'll own up and say that's genuinely interesting...

To ask an odd question--

"Racist" as in a sort of "Product of the Time/Place" sort of way, or just a nastier, more vindictive sort of "Racism" (which I'll admit is an odd distinction to make, but I'm not quie sure how to phrase that...)



Deaths in combat via war isn't genocide, though...

And maybe I'm biased, but as far as I'm concerned...

The Axis were the Axis, and even though the deaths of civilians in the Axis were regrettable...

I back the Hiroshima Bombing, and I back Dresden--anything to hasten the wars' ending, even if it WAS admittedly dirty and beneath the standards of the Allies' moral caliber.

Just my own opinion, I can definitely see both sides of the coin there, but I am...well, as "OK" with such decisions as you can be (now, the internment of the Japanese-Americans was uncalled for and THAT I fully charge FDR for and call foul there, even though I do think he's one of the greatest rulers of the last century and would definitely be my pick for the best American President of the last century.)

Churchill invented terror bombing as a strategy. He wanted to kill as many civilians as possible. He blew up the French fleet without a second thought, and they were his 'allies'. He talked about how it was a good thing that the white people of Australia and America replaced the inferior aboriginal peoples, that it was an example of a superior race thriving and an inferior one dying out. He talked openly about experimenting with chemical weapons on recalcitrant Arab tribes. He formed the murderous black & tans in Ireland and purposely starved the Bengalis in the 40s. He cared nothing about loss of life, including that of his own men whom he sent to their deaths in droves. He loved war and thought of any way possible to provoke it.

""Racist" as in a sort of "Product of the Time/Place" sort of way"

Why does he get this excuse, but nobody else does?

"I back the Hiroshima Bombing, and I back Dresden--anything to hasten the wars' ending, even if it WAS admittedly dirty and beneath the standards of the Allies' moral caliber."

Because you're a disgusting hypocrite and have no problem with gratuitous suffering.

I like how you're fine with nuking civilians, but putting them in internment camps is beyond the pale.

I also like how 'but they're the Axis' allows you to support atrocities by western countries but the Soviet invasion of Germany is uniquely vile. Nevermind that Germany annihilated everything in its path in Soviet Russia, and unleashed all of its barbarity on the populations there.

No, I understand the question,
'Churchill was particularly keen on chemical weapons, suggesting they be used "against recalcitrant Arabs as an experiment". He dismissed objections as "unreasonable". "I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes _ [to] spread a lively terror _" In today's terms, "the Arab" needed to be shocked and awed. A good gassing might well do the job' that was from the guardian (major newspaper in the UK if you're an American)
and:
'"he was the worst sort of empire loyalist, desperate to hold on to India, and racist about Gandhi ... ". Gill adds' from another article i read (the hindu times)
i think he was a racist, although for an upper class conservative of the time that would not have been too rare...
and i agree about death in combat, i don't back Dresden although i do back Hiroshima, his policies with regards to the food shortages in India during ww2 though are, at least in my opinion, comparable to the food shortages under communist leades, who have the millions of deaths attributed to them as murder.

sorry for the horrible layout of this reply too!

and when i said that it wouldn't have been too rare for someone like him in that time it wasn't a justification, i think racism is always appaling, even if it is the 'humorous' racism of someone like prince phillip

So... you oppose bombing Dresden but not the actions of the Soviets in Germany? If punishing civilians is wrong then it's wrong in all instances.

The Soviet invasion of Germany was humane. Stalin never ordered any harm to occur to the population and in fact explicitly ordered the population to be treated humanely. That individuals took revenge there, surely took place. But read about the horrors the Red Army endured while fighting the Germans and surely it's at least understandable.

"Why does he get this excuse, but nobody else does?"

I give others that excuse as well. Shakespeare, for one. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, as they owned quite a few slaves (and Jefferson slept with quite a few.) And I can keep going...how many would you like me to name that I'd give that same sort of treatment to (it's not an excuse, it's viewing in context.)

"Because you're a disgusting hypocrite and have no problem with gratuitous suffering."

And you're someone who PRAISED HITLER for his "beautiful" battlefield victories and gave THAT as a justification for ranking him less of an ass than Churchill.

I'm sorry...

The man killed 6 million, but he loses out to either a brilliant man who did far more good than evil (my view) or else a bumbling drunken chain-smoker (your view) in terms of assholery?

The HOLOCAUST doesn't stack up to whatever wrongs Churchill did?

The Supreme Act of Evil in the 20th Century, arguably in the history of Western Civilization...

And its perpetrator still isn't a worse human being than Winston Churchill?

...Were you mistakenly watching the Doctor Who episode where Churchill considers taking help from the Daleks to win WWII?

I assure you, Putin--that never actually happened.

I know that it may come as a bit of a shock, but that was fiction, it's OK, Churchill wasn't really consorting with fascistic trashcans from another world.

He probably found himself bent over a trashcan a few times over his career, but that's another story.

As for "Gratuitous Suffering"...

They started it.
Simplistic, but I have to take who I'm speaking to in mind, after all.
They started it with Poland, with Kristallnacht and the Holocaust, with Pearl Harbor.
Do two wrongs make a right?
No.
Would I let civilians in the nations who started it die if it meant a quicker end to the war?
Yes.
If Dresden hastened the end of the Holocaust and Hitler's death and defeat?
Yes.
If bombing Japan meant American lives would be spared?
Yes--if I have to choose between their lives and American lives in an invasion...

I'll choose to keep my countrymen alive first, thanks.

You can call me morally repugnant all you want--

You've called Stalin a hero and somehow managed to say Adolf Hitler was a better person than Winston Churchill DESPITE his killing 6 million of my people and making my grandfather have to go to war and shell the very Munich building that was giving orders for the Reich that allowed those 6 million to die.

I'll take my moral grays and leave you to your despicable Stalinist worship and Hitler Apologetics.

You anti-communists never acknowledge the crimes of your own heroes and think there's a halo around you. It's pathetic really.

"I like how you're fine with nuking civilians, but putting them in internment camps is beyond the pale."

Those nuked belonged to a country we were at war with.
Those interred belonged to OUR country and were LEGAL citizens.

Stop patronizing the difference between the two and miking their innocent suffering so you can pretend you're some sort of self-righteous beacon of priggishness.

I don't get your hatred of Stalin, if that is your attitude towards the Axis. If it wasn't for the evil USSR, there would be no Jews at all in Europe. You bitch about me praising German tactical ability, but yet you hate the man who crushed them. Unbelievable.

"You anti-communists never acknowledge the crimes of your own heroes and think there's a halo around you. It's pathetic really."

YOU JUSTIFIED STALIN! >:O

Really, how are WE the ones not acknowledging evils when YOU endorse Stalin as one of the greatest leaders EVER and give apologies for Hitler???

Did you not get the post where I said being an ass was a matter of being evil + stupid. Usually you don't associate being an ass with intelligence.

I DEMAND JUSTICE!

"You anti-communists never acknowledge the crimes of your own heroes and think there's a halo around you. It's pathetic really."

Says the guy who denies the existence of North Korean gulags.

"I don't get your hatred of Stalin, if that is your attitude towards the Axis. If it wasn't for the evil USSR, there would be no Jews at all in Europe. You bitch about me praising German tactical ability, but yet you hate the man who crushed them. Unbelievable."

Bull, Russia drove plenty of Jews out as well--

Not as bad as the Nazis, but then, who were in that regard?

The USSR didn't exactly have an Underground Railroad for Jews, and Stalin and the USSR didn't fight Hitler to save the Jews, AGAIN...

Stalin, being INEPT, allowed himself to be double-crossed by Hitler and needed to fight because of it.

He wasn't charging in there talking about freeing Jews or saving Western Europe...

Because you act incredulous at the thought that your heroes Napoleon and Churchill could be anything but heroic, while acting like the USSR didn't have to deal with uniquely horrifying conditions while the rest of the world seemed to sit on their hands and wait for Germany and the USSR to kill each other. I've acknowledged that the purges took place and that a famine took place. I disagree with your interpretations of those events. You act like Churchill and Napoleon were immune from the dirtiness of politics during war.

can't we just agree that hitler is the worst (surely if you're a communist putin you can accept that), churchill was an ass, and stalin was well crazy?

And I'm sorry, Putin, but:

Evil + Stupid < Evil + Intelligent on the Asshole Scale...

The former, at least, can likely do lesser harm...
The latter can do irrevocably harm.

Case in point, Mr. Evil + Intelligent himself. Hitler--

The Yiddish language is DEAD, its literature wiped to obscurity, 6 million Jews dead, a war started that was the worst in history...

How does Evil + Stupid top THAT?

Evil + Intelligent = A Bigger Ass and a More Destructive Ass.

"The USSR didn't exactly have an Underground Railroad for Jews"

They liberated the camps! Wow. Just wow. If Churchill did 1/10 the stuff that Stalin did during the war, you'd be having parades for him every fucking day.

The USSR was *founded & led by Jews! It also created an autonomous province for Yiddish culture. Stalin's Russia was also the first country and the most adamant country about recognizing Israel. Meanwhile McCarthite America wanted to root out "Judeo-Bolshevism" from American shores.

"Stalin, being INEPT, allowed himself to be double-crossed by Hitler and needed to fight because of it."

Which is why he spent the truce years mobilizing everything he could for the war, set up the 'Stalin line' (modeled after the Maginot Line'), and offered multiple anti-Axis alliances with France & the UK. He was also prepared to go to war over Czechoslovakia, while you wonderful liberal democrats simply handed it to Adolf on a platter, and whined about Germany's poor treatment under Versailles.

The pact was signed because Russia wasn't going to sit back and allow Germany, with UK and French connivance, destroy the Soviet Union while they reaped all the benefits.

"Says the guy who denies the existence of North Korean gulags."

Obligatory North Korea reference, now this trashy redbaiting thread is complete.

I guess we're just gonna ignore the whole Doctor's Plot thing, then.

@Socrates Dissatisfied:

I don't view Churchill as an ass at all...

Flawed man, but no one's the impossible beacon of Socialist Perfection Putin envisions, and Churchill was a damned good leader.

What's more, letting off Stalin as merely "Crazy" is letting the man off with a slap on the wrist.

He's nearly just as bad as, if not as bad or, by some accounts if we take longevity into it, even WORSE than Hitler over the course of the whole span of his regime and its effects.



The greatest difference between Stalin and Hitler was Hitler, clearly, preferred the Chaplin 'Stache while Stalin preferred the Walrus Look.

"In answer to your inquiry:
National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism.
Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism.
In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty. [10]"

"Obligatory North Korea reference, now this trashy redbaiting thread is complete."

Notice no denial that he doesn't think the gulags exist? Never forget that Putin33 supports the worst people on Earth right now.