Once again, organized religion is the root of all of our most serious problems.

"All israeli military actions are in retaliation to provocation"

So what provocative actions did the Palestinians take to require people from another continent to retaliate by invading the Palestinians' land and drive them into refugee camps?

As a British citizen I must say that the British governments of the late 1940s and 50s are partly to blame, for allowing the state of Israel to come into existence in the first place.

Exactly, what did the Palestinians do to deserve being ethnically cleansed in 1948?

The Palestinians listened to 22 Arab nations tell them that they would destroy all the Jews and they would have the entire country for themselves. Then they got to live in UN refugee camps because the Arabs didn't want them.

Jews have had continuous occupation of Israel since Biblical times. Those Jews that returned did so to land they bought from the Arabs. Besides you aren't mentioning all the Jews that were driven out of Arab lands in 1947 and had their lands confiscated.

And whoever said the Arab states were paragons of saintliness? So what if Jews have had continuous occupation of Palestine? There has also been a native Palestinian population there since effectively the same time period (one could argue longer, if you consider OT history to have some basis in fact).

"The Palestinians listened to 22 Arab nations tell them that they would destroy all the Jews and they would have the entire country for themselves"

Many of those 22 Arab nations didn't even exist in 1948, and most that did were still in the process of de-colonizing. Lie #1

"Then they got to live in UN refugee camps because the Arabs didn't want them."

They live in refugee camps because Israel refuses to allow the refugees to return to their arms - most of which were expropriated and given to Jews. Lie #2

" Those Jews that returned did so to land they bought from the Arabs."

Only 6% of Palestinian land was owned by Jews in 1948, yet the partition gave Israel 56% of the land. Can't call this an outright lie, but it's pretty close.

" Besides you aren't mentioning all the Jews that were driven out of Arab lands in 1947 and had their lands confiscated."

Um... the alleged expulsions of Jews did not happen until after the 1948 war. And they weren't expulsions at all - Israel actively encouraged Arab jews to emigrate to Israel, offering them free houses and land (confiscated from those Palestinian refugees), and even resorted to false flag terror attacks on Jewish targets in Egypt and Iraq to 'encourage' Jews to leave.

Someone has certainly been reading straight from the Hasbara manual.

I don't think the Palestinians have done themselves any favors by, oh, I don't know, continuously trying to enact their revenge. What did the Jews do to deserve a homeland? Have half of their worldwide population slaughtered. The Israeli forces learned of a plot among united Arab nations to annihilate Israel and to stop this, Israel bombed the Egyptian air bases carrying all of their power. They increased their territory in the process. That is how war works. Israel took the offensive in order to save their butts and they managed to do so. That is what the Palestinians did.

I am not about to be racist toward anyone with Muslim or Arab roots, but everything Israel has done has been in the name of their own protection. It says something when a nation will release a thousand prisoners bent on killing off their nation in return for a soldier who bravely fought for his country. And it says something when the Arab nations are only 1 for 2 in that trade. Once they returned a man and once a coffin. That's all I will say on the matter.

"Only 6% of Palestinian land was owned by Jews in 1948, yet the partition gave Israel 56% of the land. Can't call this an outright lie, but it's pretty close."

I see you aren't counting the other Palestinian state, Jordan, that was formed out of the British mandate. That was over twice the size of the combined Israel and Palestine.

"There has also been a native Palestinian population there since effectively the same time period (one could argue longer, if you consider OT history to have some basis in fact)."

The Palestinians aren't descendants of any group from Biblical times. They are laborers brought in to work Turkish estates from the Ottoman occupation.

"The Palestinians aren't descendants of any group from Biblical times."

'Palestine' is a Latinization of "Phillistine", so yes, they have been around for awhile - longer even than the Tribe of Judah. But anyway, what do 3,000 year old fairy tales have to do with 20th century invasions?

"They are laborers brought in to work Turkish estates from the Ottoman occupation."

Lie. "From Time Immemorial" was thoroughly debunked. It is now used as an object lesson for history undergrads on why journalists shouldn't bother trying to write history.

"I see you aren't counting the other Palestinian state, Jordan"

That's because Jordan isn't (and wasn't) a Palestinian state. It has been ruled by the Hashemites since its foundation, who have been none too kind to all of the destitute Palestinian refugees in their country.

"What did the Jews do to deserve a homeland? Have half of their worldwide population slaughtered. "

Does that mean they should be allowed to push the Palestinians off their land? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Anti Israeli here.....

haha, have half their population slaughtered, because the Palenstinians did that, right? wow...

That is like my brother being killed by Fred, and I go to Jacks house, and kick him out, and move in, because I my brother died, even though jack did not have anything to do with it..


Great logic there....NOT /FACEPALM

Largeham, the Palestinians would not have lost so much land had they not plotted against the Israelis. They'd have been left to what they had and if they'd been more careful, Israel wouldn't exist. To be here today has shown nothing but brilliance on their part because logically, they should not be.

bo sox...stop stop stop stop They didnt deserve to lose the first acre. Losing theinitial land caused the friction for thenext ones.

I am a conservative, but I am more of a Paleo conservative (is that a word?) so I do not support us helping any nation until our own shit is in order

"Largeham, the Palestinians would not have lost so much land had they not plotted against the Israelis"

Huh? How exactly were the Palestinians "plotting" in the 1890s, when Zionist leaders were encouraging European Jews to move to Palestine, erroneously describing it as "a land without a people"?

What did the British do to deserve the Malvinas?

What did the United States do to deserve the Indians' land? They took it. I hate to say it, but we don't really pay too much attention to that type of ethnic cleansing because we consider them lower than us, but it's all the same. It is a change in the possession of land. While I hope it won't be within my lifetime, the Palestinians will retake Arabia someday. Then it will return to the hands that hold it now.

Drive them all into the sea.

But, really, you can't justify the argument for either side by pointing out the inequities and travesties varied out by the other. There is so much embarrassment to pass around that I really can't feel much sympathy for anyone.

That being said, there is some light in the fact that relative to its middle eastern neighbors, Israel does have *some* progressive tendencies. Obviously not the highest standard to hold them to but if you're one for cultural relativism...

"That's because Jordan isn't (and wasn't) a Palestinian state."

The population is majority Palestinian and it was part of the Mandate of Palestine.

"who have been none too kind to all of the destitute Palestinian refugees in their country."

No kidding, then why don't they overthrow it? They already have the numbers. Why not make Jordan the Palestinian homeland?

"erroneously describing it as "a land without a people"?"

In 1890 the country was less populated than Montenegro. It was always a backwater Ottoman province, with no history of independence whatsoever. Nor did the Palestinians at the time of the Zionist aliyahs give one whit about Palestinian 'independence', they considered the area part of Greater Syria. The Arab states in 1948 wanted to divide the area up between them, which is why nobody whined about the Jordanian or Egyptian occupations.

As for the 'two wrongs don't make a right' argument. Please, tell me, what you expected the millions of Jewish refugees, which were a serious problem after the war, to do? Go back to their 'homes' where they were immediately attacked, as in Poland? Go back to the very places which implemented pogroms against them and collaborated with their executioners? What exactly is your solution?

"No kidding, then why don't they overthrow it? They already have the numbers. Why not make Jordan the Palestinian homeland? "

Maybe because the Jordanian military - unlike the Palestinian refugees - has tanks, aircraft, helicopters, artillery, a unified command structure, money, ammunition stockpiles, etc., etc...?

"Nor did the Palestinians at the time of the Zionist aliyahs give one whit about Palestinian 'independence', "

Really? Then why did Palestinians join with the British to fight the Ottomans during the First World War? And then why did they rebel against the British in the 1930's? That sounds like some pretty serious interest in independence to me.

"What exactly is your solution? "

New York City is the real Jewish Homeland.

So do the Israelis. Yet all I hear about is the evil Jews and about how Israel needs to be 'liberated' "from the river to the sea". Why isn't Jordan the pariah state du jour? The Palestinians assassinated the Hashemite king in the past, so what's with the excuses? It hasn't stopped the PLO, Hamas, or Hezballah from arming itself.

The Palestinians did try to kill the king of Jordan and overthrow the government in the 1970s. That's why most of them got kicked out into Lebanon where they set up a state within a state.

Also, the PLO had no qualms with making territorial claims to the whole of the Mandate, including all of Jordan. So this notion that Jordan is somehow separate is news to the Palestinians.

"Then why did Palestinians join with the British to fight the Ottomans during the First World War?"

That had nothing to do with Palestinian nationalism. They wanted an Arab state encompassing the whole of Ottoman Arabia. Show me where there was any notion of Palestinian nationalism during WWI. No, they all followed King Faisal's idea of Greater Syria.

"And then why did they rebel against the British in the 1930's?"

It's called the 'Arab Revolt' and the 'Palestinian Revolt' for a reason.

Why did the Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi tell the Peel Commission that 'Palestine' was a 'Zionist invention'? Why then did the PLO as late as the 1970s claim that the 'Palestinian people did not exist'?

"“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity…Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem.”"

"New York City is the real Jewish Homeland."

Because Americans, especially rightwing Americans, have always been so kind to Jews, especially in 40s. Look at all those refugees that were taken in.