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stratagos (3269 D(S))
03 Nov 11 UTC
Chainsaw Diplomacy Public Press
Any of you idiots capable of processing the simple concept? Details inside..
85 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
03 Nov 11 UTC
Minor Car Trouble
So, I've been having a little trouble with my car and I'm trying to fix it myself without going to a shop. So far, my attempts haven't been successful and my internet searches have been less than helpful. I thought someone here may be able to give me some tips. Details inside.

50 replies
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
The Top 10 Most Important Battles of All-Time
Pretty self-explanatory...if you want to try and rank your picks, bonus points.
I WILL give one caveat--all of my picks ARE slanted towards the West, that's just my bias...don't know enough Eastern Theatre battles to really include many, and those that do make my list are because the West drove back the East...so you can include Eastern battles--please do!--but I don't known them, so can't include them. Let the War of the Words begin! :)
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Obi's List:

10. Marne I/II (Arguably the most intense and important battles of WWI)

9. Stalingrad (The “Battle of Britain” on the Eastern Front…arguably Russia’s Finest Hour)

8. Waterloo (Napoleon’s, England’s glory-era proceeds full-swing, France has never recaptured the magic)

7. Trenton (Washington Crosses the Delaware, Saves the Revolution, will allow America to continue on)

6. Zama (A Waterloo for Hannibal, Carthage falls, and Rome’s subsequent dominance impacts the West immensely)

5. Marathon (The Greeks repelling the Persian invasion “saved” Western/Greek civilization in its infancy)

4. Tours (A French loss, and the Arabic/Muslim influence spread over Europe, changing cultural/political history)

3. Cortez vs. Aztecs (The Beginning of the End for a great empire, the rise of another…and the Worlds collide)

2. Normandy (The largest landing invasion of all-time, and one of the biggest in terms of size and stakes)

1. Battle of Britain (An English loss, and we may have well had a VERY different Europe…and world)


5 Honorable Mentions:
-Trafalgar
-Israeli War for Independence/Agression (depending on who you side with there…you know which side I back)
-Thermopylae
-Iwo Jima
-Hastings

And 5 Notes on the Ratings:

-BoB wins out for me just because I’m not so sure the Allies would have won WWII if that battle had been lost…even if the USA entered and fought with the USSR and whatever was left of England and France, Hitler may have had enough time, resources, and momentum to sue for peace, or even win out.

-Normandy and Stalingrad are lower as I don’t think either of them could’ve been war-losers by themselves, whereas it’s hard not to see an English loss in the BoB as a war-loser…Normandy was an offensive, so a loss there would’ve hurt severely, but not destroyed the Allied effort…and while Stalingrad is maybe the grittiest, nastiest battle on the list, I don’t think Hitler could have won on two fronts anyway, and so I think the USSR would’ve prevailed/outlasted Hitler with the West pushing even if Stalingrad fell…maybe I’m wrong, but hey, so much of this is based on “what-ifs” and opinion.

-I included both Marne battles as they occurred on the same site, were equally important, and bookend WWI nicely

-The lasting historical ramifications of each battle played a large part in deciding their place; as a result, older battles for independence such as Marathon and Tours were placed over Marne I/II, Waterloo, and so on…those battles arguably never happen if Marathon and/or Tours are lost.

-Finally, the reverse-outcome-potential (ie, if the other side won) played the biggest factor for me…hence Trenton’s being included and being ranked over Waterloo—a Napoleon win at Waterloo still gives him a long road ahead and England may well have won, but a Washington loss at Trenton and the Revolution likely dies in 1776’s Valley Forge cold, and no USA impacts the next two centuries immensely) and the BoB winning the top slot—I still hold if that goes the other way and Hitler wins, Europe might be different, what is now the “free” world might be under imperial, totalitarian regimes, and some of us—ahem—might not be sitting here typing this list out.
largeham (149 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
I would put Kursk over Stalingrad, though obviously both were pretty important. I don't think Waterloo is that significant. Napoleon would have lost anyway, the Coalition had over a million soldiers (IIRC), had Wellington lost it would have meant the peace treaty might have been dominated more by the Prussians. But the UK would have still held a dominant position.

For Japan, Nagashino would be pretty important IMO. It destroyed the previous ways of warfare in Japan and made Nobunaga's goal quite achievable. Also, IIRC, it is the first example of line formation being used for guns.
Putin33 (111 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
"Cortez vs. Aztecs (The Beginning of the End for a great empire, the rise of another…and the Worlds collide)"

That counts as a single battle?

"1. Battle of Britain (An English loss, and we may have well had a VERY different Europe…and world)"

Most overrated battle ever.
WhiteSammy (132 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Sinking of the Bismark? Guadalcanal? Battle of Troy? Battle of Hastings(1066 Invasion of England(last successful))? Battle of Thermopylae?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
-Troy I don't count...mythological account (we know there WAS A troy and likely a Trojan War...but dig up the Horse and I'll put the battle in!) ;)

-THe Bismark and Guadalcanal were important...but this is ALL-TIME, and they don't even make a case for $1 in their OWN war

-Hastings made the Honorable mentions...I couldn't put it in as it was so Anglo-centric, the same way Gettysburg is huge if you're an American, but not a world-changer otherwise

-I chose Marathon over Thermopylae as it came first
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Sinking of the Bismark and Guadalcanal both by themselves were unimportant. Battle of Troy....well I really don't know the ramifications of it. Hastings is definitely a candidate, but Thermopylae wasn't as important as Plataea the following year.
Putin33 (111 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
The BoB isn't Anglocentric! My god, German veterans considered the thing irrelevant, a minor sideshow.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
...

Well, they also lost it...?

I don't think you'll get may votes for THAT Battle being irrelevant when Axix victory equaled a control of Europe like no one has ever had and potentially striking the US East coast as the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor...

Would the Pacific War have gone the US's way if it had to split its navy two ways like that?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
And, no, sorry...

An entire COUNTRY getting shelled into the ground doesn't qualify as "irrelevant" or "a minor side show" in any decent use of the term.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
"Sinking of the Bismark and Guadalcanal both by themselves were unimportant"

Whoa there... the struggle for Guadalcanal marked the turning point in the Pacific War, and was absolutely decisive. Japan lost her highly trained carrier pilots (primarily in the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands), took significant losses to warships in all the night time surface battles in 'The Slot', and lost tens of thousands of soldiers on the island. To suggest it wasn't important is absolutely absurd.
Marti the Bruce (100 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
spot on obi. The battle of britain was never a minor side show, and the historical ramifications of losing that would have been awful.
Think on this, how could Overlord have been planned without the staging areas in Britain? What, sail the entire invasion force across the Atlantic? Not happening. Without Britain, Europe was lost. If not to Germany, then to USSR. Neither bear thinking about.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
"Also, IIRC, it is the first example of line formation being used for guns."

The problem there is that a line formation was not optimal for using firearms in that period, which is why in Europe you had formations like the Tercio. It worked at Nagashino because the musketeers were heavily fortified and the Takeda cavalry were charging over less than ideal terrain.
Putin33 (111 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Actium 31 BC, formed the Roman Empire
Siege of Constantinople, 678. European civilization defeats the Arab invasions. The Muslim invaders would not be able to take Constantinople until 1453.
Salamis, 480 - Greeks decisively defeat the Persians
Battle of Tours, 732 - Defeat of the Arabs in Europe, again another period when Europe was under threat from being Islamicized. Established the Carlingian Empire in Europe.
Tarori 1192, Muslim defeat of the Rajputs, another great Eastern civilization falls, India would be a great power today if not for this event
Siege of Baghdad 1258, Mongol destruction of the center of learning in Mesopotamia, its effects have been long lasting
Battle of Ain Jalut 1260, Mongols decisively defeated for the first time, meant that they would expand no farther in the Middle East
Ugra River 1480, again with the Mongol theme, but this ended Mongolian rule of Russia, marked the beginning of the end of the preeminence of the Mongols in Eurasia
Guagamela 331 BC, Alexander's conquest of Achaemenid Persia
Ipsus 301 BC, marked the fall of the Alexandrian Empire
Talas 751, Arab defeat of the Chinese in central Asia. The region would look much different if not for this battle.


SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
02 Nov 11 UTC
Battle of Britain - if we'd lost, Germany would have invaded and we had nowhere near the necessary forces to stop them. Then Germany would have ruled Europe *and* the Atlantic Ocean and could have moved her forces to the Eastern front and defeated Russia. This would be followed a few years later by a simultaneous German/Japanese attack on the US - backed by all of the resources they control between them - which the US couldn't hope to match and freedom dies.

Battle of Hastings (last successful invasion) - the history of England and the shape of the British Empire (including an English speaking America) would have been very different.

Battle of Lepanto - stopped the expansion of the Ottoman Empire and kept control of the Mediterranean in European hands - OR - stopped the expansion of the Muslim empire and kept control of the Mediterranean in Christine hands. YMMV.

Battle of Midway - how differently would the war in the Pacific have gone if this had ended differently?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
"Battle of Britain - if we'd lost, Germany would have invaded and we had nowhere near the necessary forces to stop them. Then Germany would have ruled Europe *and* the Atlantic Ocean and could have moved her forces to the Eastern front and defeated Russia. This would be followed a few years later by a simultaneous German/Japanese attack on the US - backed by all of the resources they control between them - which the US couldn't hope to match and freedom dies."

"
The battle of britain was never a minor side show, and the historical ramifications of losing that would have been awful.
Think on this, how could Overlord have been planned without the staging areas in Britain? What, sail the entire invasion force across the Atlantic? Not happening. Without Britain, Europe was lost. If not to Germany, then to USSR. Neither bear thinking about."

THANK YOU.

Not exactly a minor side show, eh, Putin...the Death of Liberty and the Birth of a REAL 1984-Superstate?
largeham (149 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
I agree with Lepanto. I disagree about Britain. Important yes, but the Germans would have had to get past the RN with their much smaller navy.
largeham (149 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Tolstoy, you are right about Nagashino. I wanted to point out though that it was the first time (I think) gunpowder units were set up like that with the logic of crouching while reloading.
Putin33 (111 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
There's no way Operation Sealion would have ever been successful with the strength of the Royal Navy and Churchill's willingness to use mustard gas on any amphibious invasion Furthermore the Germans had no interest in invading Britain nor any real preparation for it.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
"Battle of Midway - how differently would the war in the Pacific have gone if this had ended differently?"

It may have lasted another year, or resulted in a conditional surrender. But there was no way Japan was going to win that war. Even if the Japanese were able to keep heavy bombers out of range of the home islands, Japan simply could not compete with American naval construction or submarine warfare. Midway was a very important battle, but remember that most of the highly trained Japanese naval aviators survived, and Japan still had her two most modern carriers (and all of the surface combatant fleet) intact and two brand new carriers coming out of the shipyard. The long steady bleed of the Guadalcanal campaign was more important to the overall process of the war.
Putin33 (111 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
The Fall of Singapore was probably the most important battle in the Pacific, in terms of its lasting impact on the psyche of colonized people in Asia. Britain's fortress was defeated by an inferior Japanese force.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Re: Hastings - at the risk of being booed by all the Englishmen here, I would point out that the conquest of England by a French dynasty resulted primarily in England being taxed to support military adventurism for several hundred years by French-speaking kings who cared more about maintaining their possession in France than learning English. I think England would've been better off if Guillaume de Normandie had been the one to take a crossbow bolt to the eye.
HerrBayerischKaiser (208 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
How can you guys forget ones such as the Teutoburg, the German Unification of Frederick I (Barbarossa), or even the Battle of Sedan. This is a very Anglo-centric thread.
semck83 (229 D(B))
02 Nov 11 UTC
Nothing too original here by this point, a couple are distinctly idiosyncratic, and there's a definite tilt toward my historical interests, but, in no particular order....

Hastings.
Midway
Gettysburg
Armada
Britain
Argonne
Covadonga
Leningrad
Saratoga
and of course....

Pelenor Fields
semck83 (229 D(B))
02 Nov 11 UTC
*Pelennor
Cockney (0 DX)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Nice Q obi...

U are all missing a massive one- siege of Vienna!

If Vienna had fallen, Christianity, the west, the renaissance, etc etc would be very different

That wasn't a massive battle, but the outcome was monumentous
HerrBayerischKaiser (208 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
+1 Cockney
redhouse1938 (429 D)
02 Nov 11 UTC
My comments on Obi's list:

Sedan and Vienna should definitely be there, because they shaped much of what the world looks like today. I miss a big Asian one, perhaps one of the battles between Mao and the Quomindang? If so, then I'd say Sedan replaces Waterloo.
Cortez (and Marne?) should probably be high in the 11-20 list. I don't think South America is a factor of importance when you look at the real big picture, also I believe the battle of the Marne could have been more important, if the lessons learned from it had been learned sooner after.
Normandy and Stalingrad I believe should exchange places.
I think the battle of Britain deserves its number one position. I would say not so much because of its historical influence, which I agree is debatable, but its psychological influence. (1) The British saved the honour of Europe by not allowing its spine to be broken. (2) In these days, I believe many people believed that a democracy could never be as strong (militarily) as a dictatorship, because of the high level of discipline that could be enforced in the latter. The battle of Britain made a huge contribution in changing that idea. (3) I believe it is one of the origins of today's leaders' belief that war is a problem preferably resolved from the sky rather than on land or on the seas (see for example NATO's campaign in Lybia, that I believe was done almost exclusively by aircrafts).
Sargmacher (0 DX)
02 Nov 11 UTC
I'm surprised El Alamein isn't on any lists yet!
MrcsAurelius (3051 D(B))
02 Nov 11 UTC
Great thread idea! Haha yeah, lets put some counterweight in against the Anglo Saxon dominance of this thread. I'll think about a list, submit it later, but before that I really, really want to 'bust the hastings myth'. England was most certainly invaded at times after Hastings. Invasion denotes both conquest and plunder (Merriam-Web). Both occured during the Anglo-Dutch wars.

Plunder: Raid on the Medway,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_the_Medway

Invasion: The glorious revolution,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution

Put a 40'000 Dutch army on mainland England. Put a Dutch monarch on the throne, had far reaching consequences for Religion and Politics in England.

Great thread, I'll think of my list..
Cockney (0 DX)
02 Nov 11 UTC
@herr and @redhouse

thanks

i just saw the thread and thought it (siege of vienna) would have massive implications on religion, culture, history, science etc

vienna is a must for me

if we are talking "cool" battles, then what about-

Battle of Alesia- where Julius caesar sieged the celts, outnumbered 4 to 1, and then faced celts around his own siege force-

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193 replies
President Eden (2750 D)
06 Nov 11 UTC
WHOOOOOOOOO YEAAAAAAAAAAH
You only wish your team won the most epic college football game of all time.
23 replies
Open
ChadDC (615 D)
06 Nov 11 UTC
Political Propaganda Help!
Hey guys and gals out there! My name is Chad, and I am making a request to all you out there who are interested: Want to help me run for "President?"
6 replies
Open
Ges (292 D)
06 Nov 11 UTC
12-hr Classic WTA Gunboat, 10 pt. buy-in
gameID=71558

Two players needed in a day.
0 replies
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trip (696 D(B))
05 Nov 11 UTC
Chew on this...
Tettleton's Chew, utilize this thread by posting new topics of discussion here and only here.
11 replies
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Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
04 Nov 11 UTC
One thousand
gameID=71433
PM me for password.
2 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
13 Oct 11 UTC
George Will is priceless
George Will is rarely matched as a political commentator. His column on the Occupy Wall Street bunch is unforgettable.
20 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
12 Oct 11 UTC
Positive Rights Foolishness
Many foolish individuals in these forums post positive rights ideology.
What a worthless, destructive point of view.
Look at what it has done to Europe since the end of WWII.
God help us save American from this lunacy.
64 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
03 Nov 11 UTC
Slavoj Zizek on Charlie Rose
One of the best philosophers around. If you didn't catch the Charlie Rose episode with Slavoj then treat yourself,
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11966#
7 replies
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Tiamat (0 DX)
04 Nov 11 UTC
Fresh Meat
Hey everybody. I just came across this site when looking for diplomacy tactics...I have to say it might definitely be worth my time. Since I'm a new guy at this site, how do I start playing a game with other people?
13 replies
Open
fulhamish (4134 D)
06 Nov 11 UTC
Darmstadtium (Ds), roentgenium (Rg) and copernicium (Cn)
I see that we have three new elements to add to the Periodic Table.
I just wonder is it really appropriate to call these fleetingly present nuclear bodies elemental?
10 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
05 Nov 11 UTC
Clear Air Turbulence
gameID=71500. No in-game messaging, Anonymous players, Winner-takes-all, 30 D buy-in.
2 replies
Open
Marti the Bruce (100 D)
06 Nov 11 UTC
Sydney FC
I know most here are not Australian, nor football supporters, but the Sky Blues had a most fantastic and heroic victory tonight over Gold Coast United. 3-2 at the death. Karol Kisel scores a penalty at 90+3mins! Brilliant!
Discuss.....lol
0 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
01 Nov 11 UTC
ACORN's at it again...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/26/exclusive-acorn-playing-behind-scenes-role-in-occupy-movement/?intcmp=obinsite

Doesn't surprise me one bit...
120 replies
Open
AverageWhiteBoy (314 D)
04 Nov 11 UTC
Seven best fictional characters to play Diplomacy together
Who knows, maybe this'll become a tournament or something.
57 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
05 Nov 11 UTC
Hey guys, let's be nicer to newer gunboaters.
I've been going through and updating my stats on my profile page so I can show my record in full, partial and no press (and update messages/game), and so I got to see how well I played in gunboat to start. Guess what I found?
15 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
02 Nov 11 UTC
The Failure of European Socialism
We are living in historic times. Right before our eyes the failed model of European socialism is collapsing. The only question is what will exist in its ruins? The senseless youth violence in England, and the self-pitying protests of you Frenchmen do not bode well for the continents decaying culture.
43 replies
Open
dubjamaica (0 DX)
04 Nov 11 UTC
free booze
gameID=71510 join if you want free booze
6 replies
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Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
04 Nov 11 UTC
Google Easter Egg- Do a barrel roll
What fun. I love easter eggs. Type in do a barrel roll n google and it will. Also Z or R twice works as a tribute to starfox.
5 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
11 Oct 11 UTC
The Importance of Enrtrepreneurship
This is something that socialists, marxists, and statists do not comprehend, the importance of entrepreneurship to economic growth.
In fact entrepreneurship is the only advantage the United States has on the rest of the world.
72 replies
Open
GinoKay (249 D)
04 Nov 11 UTC
11-SC Argentina replacement needed
gameID=69595
1 reply
Open
martinck1 (4464 D(S))
03 Nov 11 UTC
The 47% Game
See below
10 replies
Open
yujufrazer (100 D)
04 Nov 11 UTC
Help
http://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID=71205&turn=5&mapType=large

K here is our map. my question is, if i move my boat from the english channel to the northsea with support from norwegian sea. but he moves his boat from north sea to BEL, with support from Hol, would my move stop his move or at least cut support?
5 replies
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Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
02 Nov 11 UTC
Herman Cain & Bill Clinton
How can a decade old accusation of sexual harassment against Herman Cain even be an issue in American politics after all the liberals dismissed Bill Clinton's adultery with a member of the staff in the White House as being completely irrelevant to his job as president.
12 replies
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Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
10 Oct 11 UTC
How the World Really Works II
Since so many don't understand how the world around them works this thread is crucial.
78 replies
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Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
02 Oct 11 UTC
Lower Taxes=More Revenue
The 28% tax on long-term capital gains brought in only $36.9 billion a year from 1987 to 1997, according to the Treasury Department, while the 15% tax brought in $96.8 billion a year from 2004 to 2007.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904194604576583151431651920.html
65 replies
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DonXavier (1341 D)
04 Nov 11 UTC
1 more for 200 point buy in
Ancient Med
1 more player
200 point buy in
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=71261
0 replies
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Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
03 Nov 11 UTC
Let's Assume
You're France in S01 and Italy moves to Piedmont while Marseilles moved to Spain and Paris to Picardy along with Brest-MAO. Barring any real diplomacy that has gone on, are you more likely to return to Marseilles in the fall assuming Italy will attack it, or list a hold order assuming a bluff?
6 replies
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