Background for non-UK players

Nick Clegg and most other Lib Dem MPs pledged to vote against raising tuition fees before the election. They then formed a coalition government with the Tories, the Lib Dems are the minor party. They have just supported the government and helped vote through a three fold rise in tuition fees. Nick Clegg has said his pledge was only valid if they had won the election. I don't get this (a) because they were never going to win the election and (b) if by some miracle they had of won, then there wouldn't have been a bill proposing increase to vote upon. So we are left with a position whereby if the Lib Dem had of won outright they would have phased out tuition fees over 2 parliments, and if they had lost they would have voted against any rise, as they didn't win or lose they voted for a rise. And people wonder why people distrust politicians.

Lol trip, I have a few suggestion where you can stick it where it will be safe

heh

Don't expect any sympathy for US players. The price of higher education here is through the roof!

*from

It's not about tuition fees abgemacht, I thought I made that clear by putting it up there as the thread title :)

Yeah, well, our politicians lie all the time, too. So, don't expect sympathy for that either :)

@abge...tell me about it. My high school education in asia cost my parents $50 a month...my college education is some 100x that without aid etc.

I think Labour would have been just as brutal in their tuition hikes. The parties are doing everything they can to cut spending. I'm a little jealous; in the US, we have one party clinging to a Keynesian model that seems a little outdated at this point, while on the other we have a party yelling and screaming for government deficits, then handing a tax increase to the rich. At least your parties are doing what needs to be done.

Our parties are building aircraft carriers but cancelling the aircraft to fly on them, cutting educational allowance to the bone for 16-18 tear olds and voting for things only 6 months ago they were pledging to vote against. All I want from my politicians is that they present a program and then deliver it when elected. Is that too much to ask?

PS Labour say they wouldn't have been so brutal with Tuition fees but as they all clearly lies who knows?

props for those fun demonstrations. I hope you're out there breaking some shit.

Maniac - Politicians lie. It's in their nature. And the nature of a coalition is that the parties in it will have to break some commitments to for it to work.

The issue is that the student vote, which used to be predominantly Labour had shifted to the LDs precisely because they were the only mainstream party talking about reducing or eliminating fees. Few students are going to vote LD now.

The sad thing is both the Conservatives and Labour have managed to screw up our higher education system, by actively devaluing a degree (thanks to the polytechnic - university transition of the 90s), moving away from practical technical qualifications (Nurses used to learn in hospitals, working with patients and experienced nurses. Now they sit in lecture halls). And this massive expansion of the higher education system meant we moved from a free at point of use system, where we even gave students grants to live on (I graduated debt free after 7 years of study), to a future where graduates will leave university with at least £27k of debt, into a job market where 50% of those entering will have degrees. And in the 20 yearsit has taken this transition to occur, public perception of the value of graduates (appears to have) plummeted.

And to complicate things, scottish students at scottish universities don't pay fees. Welsh students will have anything over £3k pa paid by the welsh assembly.

You really couldn't make the mess of UK university education. And amazingly, in the mist of all that, we still have world class institutions and departments.

You could just move to Norway. We have universal free highschool and university education. Not top notch, but it is better that starting of adult life shackled by a huge student loan you will be spending your next 10-20 years repaying. I think free education is one of the biggest advantages one gets in a socialistic state, but then again everyone pays through taxes: There is no such thing as a free lunch:/

The Labour party is being far more dishonest by commissioning the Browne review and then attacking the Tories for taking it up.

Anyway, Maniac, with regard to the Lib Dems, that is how a coalition works. Both parties have to concede some points, and do so in a way related to the support they gain from the electorate. That is why the Lib Dems back proposals that they were not originally planning to support at all. The conservative party has ditched some of their proposals too in forming the coalition, why don't you harang them about that too?

If we were going to get a government, it had to be a coalition, and that meant compromises had to be made. Furthermore, the proposals are actually very generous to students (if anything, too much so), who will find no fees whilst at university, and lower repayments when they enter the job market (making getting housing easier, for instance). They also gain more opportunity to demand that the university be accountable to them since they control where the funding goes. The only downside they face is having to repay for longer, up to a limit of 30 years, which is irrelevant for graduates who earn a substantially greater wage than non-graduates.

RE aircraft carriers, the MoD had its assets in a mess, and it made more sense to finish the construction than to incur penalties for cancelling contracts, particularly since there would be the opportunity to flog them, say, in the future.

*Love* that picture of Charles and Camilla...

Be fair. Politicians lie, that is true.

But we of all people can realize a simpler truth: People lie.

Maybe not often, and maybe for the noblest of reasons, but people lie. I doubt you could find anybody in the world that has told the truth all the time.

Be disgusted with politicians if you wish, but they are true representatives of the people.

It is totally a myth that people will be shackled by student loans. The government doesn't even expect more than half of each loan to be paid back on average, because it is cancelled after 30 years. The way they are paid back is hugely progressive, because the bottom rate is an enormous 21k. That makes it far more progressive than the tax system, where income tax is charged of minimum wage workers, VAT is actually regressive, corporation tax even more so and so on.

Added to which, if you care about having few but good universities, you should listen to what the Russell group say they need, and they described the reform as "a life-saving cash transfusion" which would be the "only way for the UK to remain a serious global player in higher education".

But breaking your campaign promises blatantly is not the same as participating in a coalition. Unless you are five times smaller than your collaborators or you are intimidated into agreeing. now, I am not very fammiliar with English politics, but from following the elections I noted that the Lib Dems are relatively big. So it is wierd that they would go back on such a promise, but then again I do not relly know enough to be able to comment.

What I can say though is that a minority government works quite fine, especially for the smaller parties within the state. It forces the larger parties to adapt their policies so they gain the support from the smaller parties, joining in a collatition severely hampers the weaker parties' ability to convey their views into legislation. At least that is normally the case.

They have to concede some points... and that there would be a fees rise was one of them. The coalition is a give and take process, and this legislation is not what we would have seen had there been a Conservative majority either.

"I noted that the Lib Dems are relatively big" - Not really. Not sure where you got your comment from, but infact they *ARE* 5 times smaller!

To be honest this just proves the point on a big stage - the Lib Dems don't really exist. Now they have found themselves in power it is obvious to anyone that they have said, and will always say, what you want to hear in a desperate attempt to be elected. They are neo-Tory when the opposition is Tory leaning and neo-Labour otherwise. All this is very easy when you are just a minority opposition party with no hope of real power and influence - little more than a pressure group really. All of a sudden they need to stand up for their beliefs and ideals. Sadly they have none ....

+1 abgemacht. Couple of my friends are taking $10-15k in loans every year for an undergraduate degree. I can't even imagine having a free education. Of course, maybe going to a private school wasn't the best choice.

Well, that's another problem. There are a lot of great public universities and colleges in the US. Taking out enormous loans to go to a private college is awfully silly (especially if you're getting a degree without great job prospects).

its not about tuition fees... so if they had instead lowered the fees you would still be !outraged! about them lying to you?! just do the sensible thing and mug some rich people. they don't even carry guns in britain.

screw it, presman, even public college is rough going.

i'm lucky my parents can pay for it, my girlfriend's parents can't and she'll be paying off her loans for 5-10 years i reckon.

there are small houses you can buy for the price of an education these days

and in the case of a private education - large houses

lol

yup, Ivy league and other private schools are 35,000+ per year

That's only tuition. For me, room and board and other things added; I'd be paying close to 55,000 a year if I didn't have a scholarship. I'm actually disgusted by my school's policy, because every year they raise tuition by 4%, regardless of what the economic situation is.

I have to say, as a student in the UK I'm getting really annoyed with everyone going on about fee's. This country is in financial trouble thanks to Brown's mismanagement, and something must be done to get the economy back on track. Students seem to be happily ignoring the fact they're not the only ones facing cuts: everyone is.

I am paying for my own education through student loans and money built up before university (a few weeks ago reached the critical point where my saving ran out and I went into debt). I'm fed up with people saying "increasing fee's will stop people going if their parents don't have money". Education is an investment in yourself, and you should be prepared to help fund this.
The students loan system here gives a ridiculously good loan (better than any other you'll find) and the fact you don't have to pay anything on it whilst earning under £15k (which will rise to £21k with changes) you don't even have to worry about the money.