Also, I'd like the record to show that I really love that the Leagues are non-anon. I feel like the only games decent players play now are anon and while I understand why, I do enjoy non-anon from time to time. The Leagues is now the only place that happens. Also, I really like the meta-gaming that is allowed. I think that it adds another fun component.

We already have the Masters and the GFDT that are anon. Why do they all have to be the same?

The story is long and I'm sure Ivo can fill in his two cents at some point... I only wanted to start this flame war, so I probably wont engage in it beyond these initial comments... but food for thought.

1) this is the Premiere League of the site - I had MUCH higher expectations from you Ivo. To our other 5 competitors - thank you for four great games, great competition, and a lot of top-notch diplomacy. to Laoban, you won it all, though in the end you should thank Ivo for your victory since he was just such a complete a**.

2) explanation: Ivo got pissy and childish because in game 3 he didn't get what he wanted. In short, he expected me to stab my ally so he and his ally could have a 3-way with me... for you players with time on your hands, go take a look at game 3 and tell Ivo if you agree with him that Germany should have stabbed France or if you agree with me that a German stab of France would have meant a probable RAF 3-way draw rather than a RAG 3way draw (that he was promising). I wanted a 4way draw and offered it... he would not accept it - got stabbed by HIS ally then blamed ME fully for the stab. since HE was excluded...

3) In the last game, he told me repeatedly, maybe half-a-dozen times that he did not want to talk to me... he would not ally with me even if it meant he lost the tournament and that he wanted to get back at me... the irrationality was completely INSANE and something I'd expect from a newbie. He even had a 24 hour window near the end to vote for a 3 way draw that would ensure HE advanced (Germany had voted for the draw then withdrew) he COULD have helped himself but he STILL refused and preferred to allow Germany to take the (undeserved) solo there rather than vote for a 3way draw that would include me.

4) Ivo - you were childish, impudent, rude, crass, and played completely out of character in game 3 and particularly 4... I was/am not only surprised and shocked, but also disgusted by your play and one of the reasons I want to take a hiatus from the game (and the site) is because the way I see it... if YOU, the great Ivo-Ivanov play like this in a game of THIS caliber... then what the fuck can the rest of us expect from the newbies and the Dip neophites...

I really truly respected you old foe... you have shattered my perception and my view (not that you or anyone else needs to care)... I have held all this in and have been waiting to write it for a while now.

you truly have broken my faith that this game can ever be expected to be played as it was intended...

ps. final results: Laoban advances in first with 15 pts, I advance in second with 8pts, and Ivo is relegated at 6th with 3 pts.



and to Ghost -

Ghost, I would strongly suggest that you consider making the League games Anonymous. I have heard this and other horror stories about how games 3 and 4 devolve into crazy crazy games... I remember last year, when MM was telling me about HIS bad experience and why he quit the leagues, I used to snicker to myself and think 'boy, the man just cant handle the heat'... but he was right and I was wrong to doubt him and his impression of the leagues as dysfunctional. more recently, I heard a horror story about league C2 (I think) from Julien - another of the best online players I've ever met and for whom I hold great respect and he gave me a similar story. And to be fair to Ivo - even HIS complaint was that he thought HE was being picked on and so he claimed he went off the rails because he thought he was being unfairly picked on... my point is this - if the league games are not anonymous, I think they become pretty useless as a tournament and I think they will continue to see less and less of the best players participating.

I do have a 2nd suggestion for you if you are reading this - which is to make each 'league' 21 players ... so you can do 4 or even 5 or 6 games, but anonymously set up and playing different players. you can still use the current scoring system, but its not necessary for every player to play every other player FOUR times. and with anonymous games, they wont even have to know who is in which game until its over (use PM passwords for entry) I think it would have to then take a mod/ref for each league... but you could then have as many league levels as you want and just have 21 in each level of play. so that is my 2nd strong suggestion.


and to everyone else...

those who agree with me - thank you for whatever agreement you have, feel free to say so and say why.

those who disagree with me - thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote, to think about it critically, and to conclude that you differ based on logic and reason. please post and share your critique...

those who say "shut up Babak" - well F you. this was my one freaking rant and I'm entitled to rant once in a while... if you don't like it, then move on and F off! =)

those who have nothing constructive to say - crack a joke to lighten things up!

sorry abge - did not read your comments before I finished writing my post. thanks for your input and that is a different perspective. I just wish you could read some of the press I got from Ivo in game 4... it was disturbing.

Clearly, I didn't have all the facts and, admittedly, by the end I wasn't watching the game that closely. It was my impression that he was just doing what he had to try to advance (much like I did in Game 3).

And for what it's worth, I was never going to agree to anything more that a 3 way draw in Game 3 (so it wasn't all Ivo's fault) and we were going to keep our word if you turned on France.

here is the table before game 4: http://www.tournaments.webdiplomacy.net/thephpleague/leagues-summer-2010

Player Name Game Completed Points Supply Centres
Babak 3 8 26
MarekP 3 8 21
abgemacht 3 7 19
LanGaidin 3 7 19
Laoban 3 3 10
Ivo_ivanov 3 3 7
dangermouse 3 0 0


if Ivo had voted for a 3way draw, he would have had 7 (and with 14 dots he would have had more than 19 for tie-breaker) so he would have stayed in PL.

It was obvious to him that LB had renigged on the 2way promise and was going for the solo - the rational choice was to take the 3way and advance. he did not, ONLY because he did not want me to top the group.

fine by me... I get 2nd and he gets 6th... you and LG should thank him for being such a D*** because otherwise you two would have been down at #5/6

as of now... I dont know which one of you or LG will get the #5 slot and which will get #4 to stay in PL.

Yeah, I don't know either and it's driving me CRAZY.

I'd say they should be anon because in the later games, there is a definite sense of "lets all attack the players at the top of the league". It twists the game in ungood ways. If the leagues were anon that couldn't happen.

First, Babak, don't friggin' apologize to me, you don't have to tell me I'm not the best player on this site, but thanks for rubbing it in!

Second, I LOVE the idea of having larger pools of people in each league, even if I still don't play in it. Anon won't work real well when the same people are playing four games in a row, most everyone will know who everyone else is in the end and what happened here would likely still happen. BUT, if you combine that even with 14 in a league, and you didn't know for sure everything and exactly where you were in the standings, that would be cool. Also, I think it would be cool to keep track of all time records in league play. The way it is now, there's no way in hell one person would solo all four games, because of the metagaming, but with this new twist, you could really get an impressive play by someone at some point.

All that said, some people clearly love the leagues as they are, and any change should be seriously considered before implemented, even if I don't like the league it is a part of this site and I like the tradition of it.

Keep them the way they are. Thankfully Ghost is in agreement that one of the organmized competitions should remain non-anon. Besides, how do you play to maximize you spot and manimize anothers threat in the league when you don't know who they are.

If the leagues ever go anon, I will give up my spot to someone else. Individual games are fine anon, but playing a series means you need to know who is who. The only acceptable change for me would be to start all 4 games at once.

@Speaker - That is what sets the leagues apart from the GFDT and the Masters. And it's why I like the leagues better than the GFDT. The game amongst the games makes it such a great ride. To alter that with anonymity would alter the essence of the Leagues.

Ill have to agree with turning the leagues into Anon games.

League A was literally agreed on at the very beginning. 2 players decided that no matter what they would ally throughout and have tun the league since then. They have bee fortunate to have countries close to each other in all 4 games and i kind of find this a little unfair. I tried to play each game in its merits and limit the Meta- gaming. Yes, its allowed and expected but i didnt want to play it like that.

With anon it is purely down to press and hard diplomacy. It would make it hard to score the leagues as you went along, especially for Ghost but overall i was a little disappointed in the way it all turned out. Especially for Alamothe and Fortknox who have been defeated in the first 3 games due to this unholy alliance.

Sir Babak - i agree with you and i can understand fully why MM left the leagues.

I also agree that the league should turn to anonymous game, at least at top level.
But in this case, I would suggest, at least game 4 just start when all other 3 games are finished, so you know what you need to do on the final one.

@Babak

You are right about game 4. I did not play this game as it should have been played, I was fully aware of it and openly stated this in-game. Yes, I acted like an asshole...

Without going further into details I'll only add this:
1. Yes, when I'm being an ass I am a real ass... At least I know when I'm being an ass and it's something I have to put effort in. Some others have it naturally and can't even notice it.

2. We had a lot of discussions in both games. I see no point in repeating this in public, so I won't go into any details. Suffice to say all I did and the events in game 4 are are replica of what happened in game 3. The only difference was Marek didn't take the solo in game 3 (which he could have, would have given him the title, he clearly hesitated, but in the end decided not to) - while LB took it (which he didn't need as far as the League table is concerned, but I guess with a total of 7 wins he simply could not resist acting like a 4-year-old in a candy store).

3. Yes, I could have drawn just before the last moment - but this would have given Babak the win, which I was not going to do for sure. To put it this way - I ran out of time to get even with all of you... or maybe not .... clearly Babak is pissed to hell and LB could have hardly made his win look more undeserved...

4. While I admit I acted like an ass, and that it was premeditated, I feel what I did was the right thing and if I could turn back time I would probably still act exactly the same way. The sad fact is that at some point people started playing a different game that had nothing to do with Diplomacy. Yes, I was unhappy, as what happened in game 3 would have never happened if this was a regular WTA game - so I decided to go totally destructive after, just in order to make a point.

5. This was also my last time participating in the Leagues. Unfortunately non-anon games look so much worse now, compared to anon, that it is simply not worth it. The current League format is also a problem.

Since Babak mentioned me, I will give my opinion on the matter.
I made a stab in game 3 of my league group that gave me the solo.
The player I stabbed warned me then that there would be retribution in game 4.
He held his word and one of his main goals in game 4 was to bring me down.
This seems to me a legitimate strategy as I will think twice about stabbing that player if we play again in league in the future. So, by doing that, he is improving his chances in future games.
The league rules seem to say that each game should be played independently i.e. vendetta because of past games should not be occurring, but it seems to me that such behaviour is tolerated.
Admitting that such a behaviour is allowed, and that it makes sense to do it, the logical consequence is that stabs will be very rare, and may occur only in the final games when for instance it brings promotion to one player.
But it feels to me that it leads to a dull version of the game where people would engage in stable safe alliances without many stabs in the first two or three games, and maybe the occasional stab in the last game. This takes away some spice of the game in my opinion.
The ugly consequence is that many of the top players have been faced with this issue and decided to leave the leagues. This should be addressed in one way or the other, because many people enjoy the leagues because of the higher level of play. If good players leave it, the leagues are losing their reason to be.
If a player is the best in the group, he should be able to stab (or not) in all four games and even possibly get four solos. It cannot happen with the current format.
It leads to a levelling of the players, so the best players have a disadvantage compared to normal games.
How to address it? I'm not sure. Babak certainly made some very interesting suggestions.
But I also reckon that playing anonymous even if it fixes the problem of vendettas would kill the fun of getting to know six other guys over a long period of time.
I do not have a definitive answer, I am very interested in other players opinions.

Julien and I are in the same league. I have to be careful about commenting on an ongoing game. But I really like the non-anonymous aspect of the league. It introduces a new level of complexity to the game. Sure you can win an individual game, but can you figure out how to balance results across 4 games in order to come out on top in the end?

And Babak, I don't think your situation has anything to do with the league format. Ivo got pissy, checked out of the game, and decided to sabotage it on the way out. It's annoying, but natural selection applies; you won't be in the league with Ivo next time around.

But I was stabbed by Napoleon of Oz in game 1, and was eliminated...he went on to a 3-way draw.

I gave him another chance and allied with him in game 2. He stabbed me again, I was eliminated again, and he went on was stabbed again in game 2, and was eliminated again...he went on to what looked like another 3-way draw with the same players, but stabbed one of them and got a 2-way draw. At that point, I announced that I would work with anyone at all who was working against him, but that was as much because he was obviously the best player in the league.

In game 3 I tried to get every player in the game to turn against him. Trojanator was basically torn to shreds, but Napoleon was able to hang on and formed alliances that stuck. In the end, we reached the point where me, Napoleon, and dosg had to band together to stop Julien from a solo. For no clear reason, dosg threw the game to Julien.

Game 4 went downhill quickly. Napoleon and Trojanator were England and France, and immediately formed an alliance. Trojanator, as France, has kept up his alliance for 8 years even though he's actually lost SCs during that time. Faced with that unshakeable alliance, Julien, dosg, and I were fighting for a 5-way draw, and Julien and Napoleon have traded extensive attacks and counter-attacks in global chat. No one is having fun.

How does one get in on these leagues?

@ BZD... bad style to comment on ongoing games/ leagues.
What you say about the outcome being set from the start is simply not true.
As you are accusing me I will reply to this but only once the league is actually over. Wish you would have done the same, Babak at least waited until it was done.
Happy to discuss it in PM with you if you cannot wait until the end.

Surely the leagues should be there to show off the best diplomatic talent, not to fuel the simplest meta gaming boredom?

Making them larger & anon would go a long way towards fixing this.
Also in an ideal world the names wouldn't be revealed until every game finished.

Go away Figle. Ghost doesn't want them anon, and most of the players in them don't. you're a site mod, not a league manager.

Oh, and why do we all insist on trying to change the LEagues to something they were never meant to be. They are intended to be a mild metafest. Now, preset league long alliances are forbidden. If you have evidence that backs it up, that should be rpesented to Ghost or the other mods for investigation. It may be something that warrants the removal of the players in question from contention so that the positions beneath them move up instead and they either move down or are banned from the leagues for a season or more. But Ivo's actions were perfectly acceptable if you view the leagues as four games forming one giant game. He couldn't win the league. He couldn't even move up with a strong second, so he chose to make certain the person he felt screwed him also got screwed. Is that not the way we do things? Win. I fyou can't win, draw. If you can't draw, survive. If you can't do that, take the bastards down with you. Well, the leagues don't have a survive. The have win, tie (with tie breakers), lose, lose and be demoted (depending on the specific league level). Ivo decided if he was going to lose, he was goign to make certain the guy who brought him dowen went down. Perfectly acceptable and part of the leagues. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Wizard and Zombie-I would like to be included in that end-of-league discussion, and probalby some of the other players do too. Lets have a thread for it when our games are finished.

What do you call an Italian with a rubber toe?
Roberto.

What if Games1, 2, and 3 are left the way they are and only game 4 is anon? As rdrivera suggests, Game 4 would not start until the other 3 games ended.

Draug, I'm also a member of the site and as such surely am allowed to contribute to conversation about it?

My take is: you are allowed to behave however you want in this game, much to my chagrin.

So yeah I have a strict philosophy about the spirit of the game and how it should be played but if one player wants to jack around and settle a score - it's his prerogative.

Babak, you're entitled to be pissed, but this should definitely not lead to non-anon leagues. Non-anon is a core aspect of the leagues.

If the leagues go anon I will leave them, not that you guys care but that's my two cents.

To me, the purpose of the leauges is to get to know 6 other players intimately in a way you never do otherwise.

If it's anon - to be honest, I'm not gonna look afterward too hard at who was who. I'm just going to move on and forget about it.

And just because the leagues are meta and expose our names doesn't mean that the players who come out on top aren't good.

In fact I'd say that coming out on top is actually harder when it's not anon and therefore even more commendable.

For my own self I'll say that I was the victim of severe "metagaming against the league leader" in my league, but was perfectly okay with that. I saw it was an exciting challenge and went on to solo game 4 anyway. And I'm proud to have known who was who and interected with zscheck, plastic hussar, wonderllama, orathaic, texasdeluxe, and obiwan on a regular basis.

even if i did kick their asses ;)

I'd like to make two things very clear:

1) The Leagues, as is, CANNOT be made anon. It will be people at a severe disadvantage. For instance, if you have the time, you can easily figure out who people are based on when they are logged on. Second, if you're already familiar with players, you can guess who they are with decent accuracy. But, some people don't already know others well/don't have time to figure everyone out. It would be a disaster.

2) People are suggesting having the Leagues contain more than 7 people per League. Well, we already have that: the GFDT. Since I'm not running that tournament, I feel it's my job to make sure the Leagues doesn't just turn into a second GFDT.

Holy Typos, Batman!

*Since I'm *now* running that tournament...

@figle - this is about the leagues, not the site. Do you play in the leagues? I honestly don't recall if you do. If so, yes speak away. I fnot, then you shouldn't speak up about how they "should be" run, especially as, being a mod, your voice might carry more weight than someone like msyelf, even though I have a vested interest int he leagues.