What is not possible, abgemacht? The existence of god?

(that is, your post is unclear)

Apologies. QM tells us that Determinism is not possible, unless I'm misunderstanding the wikipedia page on Determinism. I have no comment on God.

Unless I don't quite understand Quantum Mechanics, I think the general idea has more to do with our ability to measure velocity/position, not that certain rules are not obeyed. Rather, because we can never measure both the position and velocity of these particles without altering one of the two properties, we can't really get the exact rules (though that does not preclude their existence). This would mean that Quantum Mechanics does not rule out determinism, just our ability to ever know all of the rules involved in a deterministic system.

Kreator of Doom - Why to you "believe" in determinism exactly? Since you clearly can not prove it to be true, this seems like a rather odd belief system to me. In addition, it is rather opposed to the way in which human thought and human society functions since free will is more or less assumed to exist (I might elaborate more if I have some time later).

@nola, that is not really correct.

Particles exist as a probability function until they are measured. That means, for instance, an electron exists as a wave until it is observed at the waveform then "collapses" into a particle at a particular location. It is theoretically impossible to know where, for sure, that particle will end up. We only know the probability of its location. Because of this, I don't see how determinism can be possible, if the fundamental physics the universe is based off of is indeterminate.

You are referring to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which says we can only know the position/velocity to a certain accuracy. This isn't because we lack the tools, it's because there is no further accuracy to measure.

I believe in determinism because almost all science is entirely based off of the concept of cause and effect. Without cause and effect, science simply won't work (Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a whole other monster that I will get to later). Since we all believe in cause and effect to a certain extent, I find it quite difficult to believe that parts of the universe are ruled by determinism, and other parts aren't. Aside from the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, can you name any event in the universe that is even possibly random?

As far as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle goes, just because we don't currently have a way to determine where sub-atomic particles will be at any given time, it doesn't mean that it is impossible to ever determine. Science has explained plenty of things at a later time that were supposedly inexplicable before, and I think that this is simply an advanced case of that. I don't have faith in many things, but ultimately I have faith that the universe does, in the end, make sense, and the randomness of the HUP undermines that concept. Still, that doesn't mean that the HUP cannot ever be explained.

A question to anyone who doesn't believe in determinism based off of the HUP:
Even if the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is correct, how does that rectify free will as opposed to determinism? Certainly randomness hardly provides for more free will than determinism, right?

@Doom

It has been shown that there is no "hidden variable" in QM. In other words, there is *no way* to know the exact information about a sub-atomic particle. It has been proven to be probabilistic and non-deterministic.

As to your last Paragraph, it is possible I don't have a full grasp of Determinism. According to the wiki page: "Determinists believe the universe is fully governed by causal laws resulting in only one possible state at any point in time." QM shows us this is not true. So, am I missing something about determinism?

I suppose you don't believe in free will. If you do, sorry. But I want to refute the idea that there is no free will.

If there was no free will, we would not have the illusion that we have free will, because such an illusion serves no purpose.

For there is no point "fooling" you into thinking you have control over your own actions or for your body giving you the impression you have control over your own actions if you really don't have control. The reason there is no point is because you have no control over events, so it does matter what you believe or think you know. You do not affect reality.

@ Abge

You keep talking about HUP as if it is a proven fact, which I do not believe it to be. Considering the information we have about QM, it makes sense, but that doesn't mean that it will never be disproven. Just because there is supposedly no "hidden variable" it doesn't mean that there isn't one. For instance, we don't even know exactly what gravity really is at this point! There are just so many things that we don't currently know about the universe that makes it hard to believe that there is no "hidden variable." I personally find it hard to believe in a probabilistic world, especially since nothing on the macro scale appears to follow such a rule. I have confidence that HUP will be disproven, or at least improved upon in my lifetime.

@ Thucy

I don't agree with that arguement, because I do think that the illusion of free will serves a purpose. Depression has been shown to directly relate to a lack of control in one's life, so I think that the illusion of free will is very important.

But if it is true that the illusion serves a purpose, you have inadvertently admitted that there is a degree of free will.

You are saying that without the illusion we would be depressed. But that admits that what goes on in our own "free" minds can affect how we actually act.... which is kind of what free will is.

But all of those events leading up to you believing in free will are entirely deterministic in my opinion. So you are predetermined to believe in free will because you are human, and you would be predetermined to be utterly depressed if you had no concept of free will, etc...

@Doom,

I'm not sure why you keep brining up HUP; I'm talking about QM in general, of which HUP is only one part.

Let me say this clearer: It has been *proven* that a hidden variable would cause all of quantum mechanics to fail. That is, if there is a hidden variable, then all of quantum mechanics *must be wrong.* There is no debating this.

Now, that does leave us with the possibility that QM is, in fact, simply wrong. I'll admit that this is a possibility, but the reality is that there is approx. 100 years of experimental evidence strongly suggesting that QM is correct. To throw this away for some idea that has no scientific backing seems unwise.

"you would be predetermined to be utterly depressed if you had no concept of free will"

Why? Do animals have free will? Are they depressed? We only think we'd miss free will because we've experienced it. If we never had it, we wouldn't want it.

As to the disproving of HUP: Do you have absolutely any reason at all for believing this other than the fact that a probabilistic world makes you uncomfortable?

It's true that we don't experience HUP in day to day life, but there is a simple reason for this: We are physically so much larger than the wavelengths of the particles that make us that QM has no effect on us.

@Abge

How does HUP differ from QM in general?

Regardless, I do believe that there are hidden variables in QM, and I think that it is just wrong. Sure it has plenty of evidence to back it up, but I feel that any science that answers questions in probabilities is not a complete science, and has a large room for improvement.

No, animals don't have free will either. But I believe that all animals with a conscious mind also think that they have free will. This link talks about learned helplessness, which is the concept that animals can develop, essentially, the idea that they have no free will, and this makes them depressed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

I don't think that a probabilistic world makes any sense, especially in a world where cause and effect are easily proven on a macro scale. While I see your point about my unwillingness to believe in a probabilistic world, can you honestly say that you would be surprised if it was found that QM was entirely wrong?

HUP is one theory of QM. That's like saying what's the differences between Newton's Law and Classical Mechanics.

It's OK if you think QM is wrong; some people do. But, you need to have a reason other than a general dislike of it if you want anyone to take you seriously.

I'm familiar with LH, but I'm not sure you are. This isn't a good example because depression is different in Humans and Animals. As the article says:

"Apart from the shared depression symptoms between human and other animals such as passivity, introjected hostility, weight loss, appetite loss, social and sexual deficits, some of the diagnostic symptoms of learned helplessness—including depressed mood, feelings of worthlessness, and suicidal ideation—can be found and observed in human beings but not necessarily in animals."

@Doom

But QM doesn't talk about the Macro scale, it talks about the micro scale. Why do they have to work the same way? As I've said, there is a reason for why QM doesn't apply in the macro scale.

The only reason you're uncomfortable with it is because it's non-intuitive. Our brains weren't wired to think that way because it doesn't help us survive. That doesn't mean it isn't true.

And yes, I would be surprised in QM turned out to be flat-out wrong, because there hasn't been a single experiment that doesn't fit with the theory. If it is wrong, the answer is bound to be more complicated, not less, as determinism would be.

There really is no reason to think that QM is wrong other than the fact that it's a cop-out in a scientific community that is able to predict physical events, because in QM, there is only perhaps a 70% chance that you have any idea where a subatomic particle will be in the next millisecond (or smaller). That really is the ONLY arguement against QM, because until a hidden variable is found, it is impossible to prove wrong.

And what does that matter? Depression is depression, regardless of whether or not the symptoms in humans are more advanced than those in animals.

Well, it would be more complicated because you'd be adding yet another factor to the universe, but that would still lead to determinism.

Because in animals, they are depressed only because they are in pain and their reward/pleasure zone has been all fucked up. They aren't depressed for any higher reason like a human is.

I don't see how that matters at all. They are still depressed as a result of their idea of the world, in which they no longer have any control over their outside world.

Something I would like to note on the HUP and QM in general:
Just because we don't know and are possibly even unable to ever know where something is and how it moves does not in any way mean that it is not in a specific location and traveling at a specific velocity and subject to a very precise set of laws (even if these laws are unknowable). Our inability to know something does not mean it does not exist. The reason QM uses waveforms and all sort of other rather odd things (like probabilities) is precisely because those are our best models of particle-level reaction. However, if we, through some sort of omnipotence, could just "know" where and how everything was moving, I would expect that there is a good chance the laws of QM would probably be quite a bit different (and likely not have to be based on probability).

@Nola

I agree completely, but both me and abgemacht have talked about that concept, and he is willing to accept QM as it is, simply based on the evidence we already have for it.

@nola

QM does not say that we don't know the location. It says that the location doesn't exist. Now, as I've said, it's OK to disagree with QM, but don't just make stuff up about it.

@Doom

It matters very much. A human is depressed because he *knows* he has no control. An animal is depressed because it isn't being chemically induced to be happy. Do you not see the difference, or do you disagree that it matters?

@Abge

I don't see how humans "know" they are not in control. Even if they do know it consciously, it's not the conscious mind that would be affected by that knowledge. For instance, I don't believe in free will, yet I'm not depressed. I believe that that's because while my conscious mind doesn't believe in free will, my subconscious mind does. Similarly, a dog's conscious mind will have no concept of free will at all, but their subconscious mind works in a similar way to ours.

Also, simply based on the sheer amount of information that we do NOT know about the universe, I think that the chances of us never finding a hidden variable that disproves QM are so astronomically (literally :-P ) low, that it's hard to believe in QM for be based on that as well.

Sorry, didn't quite follow that last statement. Are you saying that even though you consciously know there is no free will, you aren't depressed because your subconscious still believes in it?

Here is what I keep reading...

Blah, blah, blah, theory with assumptions. Blah, blah, blah, supposition based on questionable concepts. Blah, blah, blah, another theory with nothing to solidly back it up.

I'm actually with Krellin on this one...