Pretype ftw.

Seriously. All the cool kids are doing it.

Quite simply, Barack Obama has made an idiotic decision. And he can't blame this one on Bush or Congress.

Firing your top commander in your top theater of operations because he mouthed off at you (when you deserved it) may make for good politics, but it's lousy strategy. This is another example of why inexperienced politicians who are out of their depth should stay the hell out of the military's business. Obama claimed that General McChrystal was attempting to "undermine civilian oversight of the military". That's not true. McChrystal's job is to give his subordinates what they need to win the war. If the Pentagon won't give him what he needs, the next step is the Oval Office. If Obama won't listen to him, the next step is the press. And that's what McChrystal did.

I'm not saying General Petraeus won't do a good job (he will; McChrystal and Petraeus are roughly equal in terms of military skill), and I'm not saying General Odierno can't finish up in Iraq. I'm saying that you should never relieve a commander who hasn't done anything wrong. You should never relieve a commander who is doing a good job under any circumstances.

Obama needs to grow a pair, lose his stale "I'm untouchable" post-election attitude, and learn how to take good criticism from people who are smarter than him.

Obama -- and I'm **no** fan of Obama -- did the right thing. You can not have the military chain of command spouting off at the mouth and undermining the Commander in Chief's authority. McChrystal was out of line. If he had something to say, he should have tendered his resignation and THEN taken to the airwaves, as Colin Powell did.

TMM is completely wrong. A General should NEVER go to the press with in internal disagreement. For one thing, what will that do for allies? "Oh shit...the theater General and his President are in a public argument over the policy of OUR country!!! Fuck those Americans!!!"

He was not out of line. If Obama wouldn't listen to him in private, you can either go to the press (knowing that you may get relieved) or you can allow more of your own soldiers die for no reason. About the Afghans' reaction, they're actually pissed at Obama for firing McChrystal. Because McChrystal was doing a good job.

What about a chain of command do you not understand, TMW?

Study a bit of history and you will find that Obama has behaved no differently than any other President in a similar circumstance. Again - I cant' stand Obama - but I can not fault him for his actions. He IS the Commander in Chief. McChrystal works FOR him...he is not equal to him...and military decorum dictates that you do not speak out publicly against the CIC. He had his discussions with Obama in private, and was given orders to carry out. Imagine if the rule was to always speak out against your commanding officer every time you didn't like an order...the military would disintegrate. McChrystal was wrong a so many levels, but most importantly by setting a poor example of insubordination to his troops. His position is NOT political, and his attempt to make a private dispute public - and therefore political - was boneheaded.

Everybody has to answer to the president. I know that. My argument is that Obama wasn't letting McChrystal do his job. If I was a general, and my (clueless) civilian boss was pushing me towards failure, I would try my hardest to do something about it.

What exactly was the dispute about?

@ krellin: If you're referring to Truman vs. MacArthur; I think Truman was wrong too. Instead of letting MacArthur win, he forced him to stalemate the Korean War, and that's a bad way to fight.

lmao@TMW. Yeah... We shoulda nuked China. Go MacArthur.

It isn't just truman and MacArthur. Seriously...there is no point to this...

Mal -- apparently McChrystal (and some of his aides) made disparaging comments about Obama in a Rolling Stone interview. But more than that, McChrystal made it known early in his appointment as general over Afghanistan he publicly expressed some displeasure with Obama over having not met with him yet. McChrystal may very well be 100% right in his thoughts...but it is WELL known that Generals do not speak publicly about their CIC. That it why this sort of things is in fact so rare! Because you don't do it.

It's too bad, too. McChrystal is a bad ass! Special Forces-kind of kick-ass soldier's soldier. That's probably why he couldn't hold his tongue...he ISN'T a political guy...and couldn't play the game right of balancing the reality of politics with the reality that he is forbidden to be political.

Hell, I wouldn't let my child mouth off about me in public...let alone my top general if I was CIC...

@ krellin (again) -- It wasn't about liking or disliking orders. "Like" and "Dislike" are subjective terms. It was about strategies that work vs. strategies that don't work. krellin, your claim that the military would fall apart if everyone questioned orders is true, but the military won't fail if the brass questions the White House. Obama shouldn't try to meddle with the military. If I served under McChrystal, I would be glad that McChrystal is trying (any way he can) to get the White House to approve a strategy that works so me and my buddies wouldn't get blown to hell.

A general shouldn't have to balance politics and the military. That's my point.

@ Amon -- Not like that. Truman was the one advocating nukes. MacArthur wanted conventional "unlimited" war (i.e. declaration of war, full commitment of armed forces)

@TMW Your wrong on so many different levels. In the military no one can mouth off to an superior without certain courtmartial. NO Commanding General is an exception! Being insubordinate to civilian authorities goes against everthing the Founding Fathers tried to protect the Republic against. It goes against an officer's oath, or for that matter an privite's oath. It goes against the example set by George Washinton.

The thing is McChrystal had already won the strategic argument. He just couldn't resist taking pot shots at the higher up he had prevailed against. That's plain dumb.

@ S.E. -- Pot shots that need to be made

@ everyone but warsprite especially -- You guys keep acting like the president is just another rank. It's not. The president is the supreme commander, but he was wrong and he wouldn't listen when McChrystal and the Pentagon told him he was wrong. Contrary to popular belief, the president is not the end of the line. You can go one step higher: The press. Let America know that their president is wrong. Because, in the end, the people are the president's boss.

I guess a good example would be Band of Brothers. When Lt. Dike was wrong, (then)1Sgt. Lipton didn't keep his mouth shut, he just went over Dike's head by going to talk to Captain Winters. McChrystal did the same thing. Because in the end, General McChrystal and (then)1Sgt. Lipton have a responsibility to do their jobs. If their direct superior won't listen, the next step is to go over their head.

@TMW You really have no ideal what your talking about. 1st McCrystal had Petraeus as immediate commander. 2nd The president is just another rank as far as the military is concerned. If he felt that way that strongly than he should resign before making any public remarks. 3rd His remarks were in the nature of personal attacks, and I don't think he even knew they would be published. 4th Read about the fall of the Roman Republic.

Well I think there's a bit on both sides that holds water. On one hand, there is a chain of command. Another example from Band of Brothers that goes contrary to that is when all the Sergeants sign a petition refusing to go into combat under Captain Sobel. While their superiors may have listened, the sergeants still got their collective ass chewed for going around the chain of command. What McChrystal did was agianst the rules and regs of the army, so the book says he gets relieved.

That being said, McChrystal has a good record and is known as a guy that gets things done. For Obama to ignore him is just plain fucking stupid. Then, after he gets what he deserves in the form of a Rolling Stone article, he tries to save face by firing a damn good soldier. It's selfish. It's a good thing McChrystal's backups are good, otherwise Obama'a powerplay could have cost many American lives. In Korea, Truman relieved MacArthur, but only after he had fucked up monumentally in allowing the Chinese to shitkick his forces and after MacArthur had consistently ignored White House directives. This current chain of events is unprecedented not because a General's speech helped cause him to be relieved, but because this is the first case where the SOLE reason for relieveing an army commender has been reasons unrelated to the military.

The examples given in band of brothers do not apply here. In the sargents verse Capt Sobel there where other routes they should have taken first. In the other example that was legal and correct but does not apply because it was not about right and wrong but compatence, and when generals start stating a president is incompatent and gets away with it what's next a coup?

The generals asked for more troops from Bush. He didn't give them as many as they wanted. I wonder where TMW would stand if the generals started calling the president and his staff names, not even really focused on policy disagreements. Of course, I shouldn't wonder, as TMW is a completely biased troll, he would have patriotically defended his CIC.

McChrystal twice went to reporters. The first time to force policy. The second time to resign. If he didn't know what would happen from that article, he was an idiot. He slapped the president and most of the top advisors in public. He didn't even push back when they got the advance copy. Either he meant to do it, or he had very low self control. Amusing that Obama sided with him on strategy, and then McChrystal did this.

Afghanistan is going very poorly. His strategy is not working. Maybe he just didn't want to go down as the general unable to finish the fight. There have been setbacks left and right, even with the more troops.

In order to win in Afghanistan, the U.S. has to start using some force. They need to stop the reporters from giving news about the wars. Every time someone dies who WILLINGLY enrolled in the U.S. military the media has a field day out of it.

Cute that the libs are using a general they once titled "General betray us", when he gave that report on the surge saying that it was succeeding. That'd be great if General Petraeus did the same thing McChristal did and then the next and so forth, and eventually it turned into such a huge deal that the military staged a coup and cleansed our government from the top down.

I saw a writeup on countering guerilla warfare that said you can fight it two ways...
1) work against it as a police force, which never works but can sometimes hold.
2) you brutally destroy the opposition and those around them, which works but could never be done in a democracy.

Was interesting...maybe I should go find it again and post it.

here is my solution to Guerilla Warfare:
Enemies!!! RETREAT!!! then the enemy gets back in their nice little forest or something then CALL IN THE AIR STRIKE AND TANKS!!!