@vamosrammstein that is the usual response from anyone, think of every major war in the past, some if not all of the problem was religion and beliefs.

This is patently false although I noticed that you wisely hedged your bets by saying "some" of the problem. Are we going to agree that it would have to be a significant cause of the conflict? The first obstacle will be to decide exactly what constitutes a significant cause then.

You've also added religion and beliefs. THat's a bit vague to start with as well. What beliefs in particular?

Alright NOW I'm willing to talk religion *rolls up sleeves* Religion is a driving force in peoples lives, and the papacy was forced into a political position in the Middle Ages. That certainyl accounts for most of the conflicts you describe Ice.

Hey Cyrano Idunno if you read my post in the other thread, if you didn't could you tell me what denomination you are, and whether or not I can quote you on the capitalized part of your last post?

Read it, replied. So Ice, where are you? Not interested unless you're interrupting? Just kidding, but seriously, where'd the opposition dissapear to?

Oh nevermind, I just read your post in the other thread, the Catholic bit will get me shot. Not really, but this person is an ex catholic and now a baptist, and regards Catholicism as a false religion and all Catholics are going to hell in his mind.
How dare you be a member of a group that won't help me argue with my biological father:p

Any belief, your belief in the grass being real is an example.
"THE BIBLE IS NOT TO BE INTERPRATED LITERALLY!!!"
Why shouldn't it be interpreted literally? It's a book just like EVERY other book in the world. All books have flaws the Bible is no exception. Just because you want to cover up the flaws with your stance that it shouldn't be interpreted literally (because it's more important then any other book FYI: It's just a book) doesn't mean the rest of us cant look past your close minded stance.
@Crazy I see what you're trying to get at here, you want me to break down specifically what caused the war(s) and how it relates to religion. Lets start with the most recent of them all then. The war in Iraq, leading cause (besides Bush lying his ass off too us) is the events of 9/11 which were directly due to Islamic EXTREMISTS (this is not to imply all Islam's would do this only the ones on the extreme side) attacking us. Why did they do it? The reasons they themselves gave was that we are/were atheist pigs that dont deserve life.

"The bible is not to be interpreted literally, when it seems to offer contradictions, otherwise it should be...

God created the first humans on earth, but he didn't...he just created the better ones...but he created everything, and Genesis is the story of creation..ok, I am confused.

My favorite part about Christianity is...God created all life, created humans, knows everything they will do, and will punish them for eternity if they don't follow God's convulted/confused/unclear rules. So, God created the earth as a big test, and either doesn't love/respect humanity(sees us as mice), or he is just pretty sadistic."
I think I just fell in love with you bro.

Let's not use 9/11 as an example, it hasn't been confirmed that Moslem terrorists took it down. Also I think I'll politely stay out of this one, sit back, and have myself a good old chuckle. I'd prefer to act as official Bible Basher but I don't have the time.

Well, if some of us weren't athiests, they wouldn't have been able to say that, now would they? Totally kidding, but you see, I can make extreme statements to argue my point as well. The bible shouldn't be interprated literally because it was written hundreds and hundreds of years ago by people who didn't fully understand the world. If you're going to argue with us about it then you have to accept that fact, otherwise "THE BIBLE IS NOT TO BE INTERPRATED LITERALLY!!!" will be a perfectly legitmate response to your words. As for the terrorist attacks of 9/11, they had more to do with poor economic conditions and an antiquated East V.S. West worldview then religion Ice.

If I were to make a point against superstition (ie religion), I would first target the witch trials throughout Europe during and after the Middle Ages and how they were transplanted in Puritan America. I'd also point to religious revivalism (eg The First and Second Great Awakenings) as a SOCIAL function used (in the case of the Second) by the middle class to reassery lost control over the working class.

NOOOOO 9/11.

Please no 9/11, let's argue over something else:]

Wait a minute, I'm pretty sure that pagan religions existed before Christianity.

I'm pretty sure people went to war, they even sacrificed things to their War god, with the understanding that the War god was who controlled the outcome of a battle. However they also went to war for personal gain.

Look at Plato's book 'the republic' he writes about his greek city states and the reasons the went to war. No mention of blaming religion, he does into detail about how to organise a city state to avoid losing a war.

Look at Nicholas Machiavelli, his book the Prince, he again talks about how to best be a successful Prince - where that term mean militrary ruler - including how to win wars with neighbouring states. No mention of warfare.

Look at tSun zu's the art of war - ok i haven't read it, but it is full of references to militrary tactics. People go to war for many reasons. Most of those reasons are for economic power, control over resources or removing a rival who is deemed a threat.

Sometimes it is for ideological reasons, such as the US in Vietnam.
Sure the crusaders went to the holy land after the pope called or a crusade, but those guys then setup cusader states, took control, pillaged, raped, took whatever they could.

They even sacked constantinople when they wasn't anything else for them to do (when constantinople was the city that had asked the pope for support against the muslims - the patiarch of constantinople being the leader of the Eastern Orthodox church at the time, if my memory serves me) Political reasons more than religious.

However when you consider almost every successful religion has peaceful co-habitation with your fellow man as a major rule, the very concept seems flawed.

Lastly i would say for my own opinion on the mater, humans are willing to work against, fight, attack, whatever word you want to use, anyone who they see as different.

Your local sports team agaisnt the next town's, whatever the context, all you need if something to make someone seem different for them to be put into the 'threat' category.
It is easy to say some other religious group is different because of their beliefs, thus it is easy to call them the enemy and go to war. (just as it is easy to say that about another country, or people who have different coloured skin - generally you can threat 'others' worse than you treat your own kind) When it comes to warfare, which existed before monotheism, religion is just an excuse. my 2 cent.

Oh please, don't make me laugh, GOD created life so that other brings could exist and find joy in life as He does, not to worship him. The reason worshiping GOD is important is that it provides the greatest joy in life, and beyond it. An all-powerful being doesn't need a fanclub. Hell isn't reserved for those who worship GOD, christians can go to hell, and nonbelievers can go to heaven. Actions speak louder then words and all that. Sorry my denomination voids my quote Vamo.

@ Ice

There is certainly no denying that relgion had some part to play in the current war. I'll agree to that with little problem. I do not agree to religion being a major cause to all wars (or even all major ones). This is false. People fight wars and have fought wars for all manner of reasons. Sometimes for no better reason than than a new king needed to make a name for himself. This does not support your notin that religion is the major cause of war. It only supports the notion that you oppose the current one as one based to some degree on religon.

@ottovanbis, 9/11 was obviously moslem, well not moslem, since i know most moslems were against it, but al-quieda for sure. Those conspiricies are BS. nevertheless pearl harbor was in fact not a complete accident. FDR knew it would happen. He wasnt sure where but he knew when and he meant for it to happen. Some might say "he was too good of a guy to do tht" he is but thats exactly why he did it, to have an excuse to fight the nazis

Nice 2 cents Orthiac, very true. People use religion as an excuse for war, but it is seldom the cause.

Ah but religion was a key piece of the attack was it not? I never said it was the entire reason I just said it had to be a key piece which it clearly was. Alright seeing as you cant have a conversation without the all caps I'm going to begin my all caps WE DONT FULLY KNOW THE WORLD OR THE UNIVERSE AND NEVER WILL! So I say fuck your point because your point is not valid in the slightest. Your joke did make me chuckle a little bit because it is partially true although from their point of view Christians are atheists as well because their religion quite literally states that no other religion is correct and thus a lie thus making the others under a lie and a god cannot be a lie so it doesn't exist and they are atheist. People hundreds of years ago were probably closer to the world and understanding it (at least on a primal basis) then we are today with out science. I firmly believe that we know jack shit about anything. To prove my point I would like to point out that most modern science is based off of Einstein's principals which a guy most recently proved to be, survey says, FALSE!

"Why did they do it? The reasons they themselves gave was that we are/were atheist pigs that dont deserve life. "

Really? When did 'they' say this?

Osama bin Laden's 1998 declaration of war clearly outlined three grievances:
1) American support for Israel
2) The American economic blockade of Iraq
3) The American occupation of Saudi Arabia
He's never said or written anything about "atheist pigs" so far as I know, but perhaps you could enlighten me.

Also, the correct term to describe more than one Muslim is "Muslims", not "Islam's".

FDR was wily, that's true, but most conspiracies are nonsense. We're getting off-topic here though, can we never stay on-subject in these forums?

sorry, that sems to be rather more than 2 cent...

I'm going to stop everyone right here. The argument of 9/11 is to be dropped from all posts now, it is quite clear that we are offending people with it thus it will be dropped.

Also, I apologize for my ignorance on the terminology behind Islam's and Muslims, forgive me for that.

This thread is not about being offensive, let's keep it clean and not offensive.

Wait a second, Ice, are you saying that not only most religion, but most science is nonsense? That is a bold claim. I'll admit that the bombers were religiously motivated, but they were following a rather misguided form of Islam, so they're hardly representative of the truths found in Islamic faith, or any faith. As for not knowing the world, we are more then capable of observing the world, and drawing logical conclusions. Just by communing with nature you can see the beauty of GOD'S plan, and understand that, while we cannot understand everything now, it will be granted to us in the next life.

I find that most Muslims are agreeable. They come to the same conclusion, similar to the Christian faith. Although, the Muslim extremist groups are misguided. Osama Bin Laden is misguided.

If we're not being offensive, could you stop swearing? It offends me.

As are extremist christian groups.

Let me expand on that post I made earlier in the other thread...
"My favorite part about Christianity is...God created all life, created humans, knows everything they will do, and will punish them for eternity if they don't follow God's convulted/confused/unclear rules. So, God created the earth as a big test, and either doesn't love/respect humanity(sees us as mice), or he is just pretty sadistic."

So, you have a bunch of dogs. If any of them misbehave, you will torture them for the rest of their lives(closest we can get). Now, some of the dogs have been trained to be house pets, some to be guard dogs, some to be fighting dogs, and some are strays. Some of them have been house trained, some have not. Some have been trained only to eat live food, some dry food only and some only wet food. You just say to yourself, that the dogs should teach each other the right way, and if any of them act wrong, that is that. Now, if this happened in America today, would you a) prosecute the person b) honor them as great or c) emulate them?

How is this different from God's actions in your mind?