gameID=168083
gameID=178862

And, slightly less successfully, though that was due to a far later stab and CAPT Brad deciding utterly throw the game for zero reason whatsoever...

gameID=184194

@abgemacht
Oh, cheer up. Come on! You have to admit, an early Italian attack on France is rather unexpected. And who knows? Austria-Hungary might welcome such a move. It will definitely give him more incentive to work with Italy, since he won't have to worry as much about a back-stab. It's just an inventive idea. Italy is pretty boring to play, so why not make things interesting?

@HR
That first game worked because Austria was destroyed by a juggernaut.

That second game doesn't count because bo was playing Austria.

@Hellenic Riot
I like the looks of Italy on those boards, mostly because you were able to survive long enough to make a draw. You must be a pretty good diplomat. It's always funny to see a wildly successful Italian player. Not too many people expect it!

I'd go so far as to say that moving against France should be the default choice, unless you get a good offer for an IT to go for.

@Hellenic Riot
Ha-ha! I think most Italian players are too afraid to mess around with France. It's like cat and mouse between them. And France is the cat. Having Switzerland impassable definitely discourages Italy from attacking France, since it forms a bottle-neck between Piedmont and Marseilles. But, it is Diplomacy. So, if you negotiate rightly, you might have a chance as Italy.

It is not always bad to move against France early, but I believe it usually is. If you want to do something because you think it will be fun or different, that's cool, but that doesn't mean it will produce good results.

Austria is significantly more likely to attack Italy early game and French centers take a lot more resources to capture and hold.

@abgemacht
Let's not bring Austria-Hungary into this. But, if you insist, fine. Suppose Austria-Hungary does attack Italy, given that he has gone after France, and has left his back turned. Austria-Hungary, in attacking Italy, for having left his back turned to him, will, in doing so, turn his back on Turkey and Russia. And I don't suppose that will end well for him.

That's assuming there is a juggernaut, which there often isn't.

The smart play as Italy is to arrange a Juggernaut when attacking France, though.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=186558
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=183586

couple times off the top of my head where attacking france is beneficial

Yeah, I guess if you're sure there's a jug, then it's a much better proposition. I feel like it can offer more limited growth, though. How deep into France do you really expect to be able to go?

Well, maybe I'm just a bad Italy

Well, the plan would be to ally with Germany against France whilst England was busy dealing with the threatening Russia. Mar, Spa, Por are the bare minimum of Italian gains, but for an Italy harbouring solo hopes they then push on to Brest and invade England afterward. It's incredibly easy to hold a line against Austria (2-3 units, 4 at most) should they survive the East, and if Turkey survive, you just ally with Russia.

The general plan being to replicate a French solo by essentially replacing France on the map; throwing as much as you can north because once you're through MAO there's no stalemate line whatsoever that can be held against you.

Oh, boy! I love stirring up controversy like this. It's a funny debate, though. Can Italy successfully attack France early in the game?

Of course it can.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=186635 <- I fuck up in this one, but still end up part of the draw
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=184054 <- I win this one

I'd only ever open against France if I'm reasonably sure Austria has no friends and is willing to remain neutral. Regardless of circumstances, France (or England) WILL eventually attack you, and typically with more power than you'll have any chance of responding to if you open against Austria or Turkey. In light of that, I find that it's an excellent use of your time to nip France in the bud while the eastern powers do their thing. Marseilles and Iberia are rather easy to hold on to as well, unlike anything you'd get in the Balkans.

I wouldn't claim to be a particularly experienced or talented player, though.

Friends don't let friends move to Tuscany.

If you suspect you or a family member are in danger of moving Rome to Tuscany, call now. Experienced therapists are on hand to help.

Don't worry Abge, I am hopeless when I have Italy. I do think that the best strategy with Italy is to make an alliance with Austria and move against France from the start. Similarly I think forming an alliance with Italy is the best strategy for Austria. The two countries complement each other, eg Austria is an "army" based power, Italy is a "fleet" based power. So HR's strategy has my endorsement, the approval of a hopeless player with Italy. Lol

I just mentioned this game in your other thread, but it also has a solid early Italian invasion of France: gameID=12882.

Seems like it really worked well for Italy's other neighbors.

I've crushed France as an aggressive Italy before. It requires help or incompetence from Germany and a solid alliance with Austria. Help/pressure from England would also be beneficial. France usually doesn't expect Italy to go after them so early in the game.

Personally, I think Austria would be kind of dumb to move on an early westward moving Italy for two reasons. 1. It gives Austria a secure backdoor to move on Turkey alone without Italy getting in the way, and 2. Almost every early Austrian move against Italy that I've seen destroys Austria long before it destroys Italy. Turkey and Russia aren't going to let that opportunity pass up. In my experience an early Austrian move on Italy just guarantees a juggernaut forming.

gameID=143236 is a better example than the two way A/T draw. I think it would have resulted in an italian solo, but then I would say that.

Noteably, there's no move to Tuscany.

^that game is the canonical example of good Italy play. When you are Italy you can attack everyone!

In so many of these Italian "success" examples I'm seeing two things:
1) Italy doesn't really press on France until year 2
2) France plays pretty incompetently or even NMRs at times
Neither of these factors fits the question posed by the thread topic. Are there examples of a year 1 strike at France working, where France NMR'ing or playing rather foolishly isn't part of it?

@slypups
Precisely! You hit the nail straight on the head. This is what I'm looking for. Is it possible for an Italian player to pose a firm attack on a competent French player from the first round of the game.

I think your definition of firm might be different to mine. My definition of "a firm attack" is where you have most of their stuff by 03/04, not where you send all your units at them.

In my example, Italy attacked France every turn of the game, except the last one (where France had agreed to vassal).

ghug: Except not quite, though. France was neutralized by 1903, but Italy didn't lose its first SC to us until 1905.