Again, as I'm sure it'll come up--

That doesn't excuse Israel's wrongful expansion into the West Bank, or other policies regarding its treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank. That's wrong, I've said before that's wrong, and they need and deserve their security as much as the Jews do.

But I feel this bears repeating after last summer's war, given how many here were of the opinion--even as synagogues ans shops were burned in France and protests turned violent--that the Jews might not need a state.

This is one of the fundamental reasons I believe they do...it's not just France, and it's not even the French government. When you have the largest population of Jews AND Muslims in Europe, chances are you're going to have some clashes, given the troubled history of both groups on the Continent.

But France isn't wholly safe for Jews...Ukraine isn't wholly safe...it isn't the duty of the United States to keep all Jews everywhere safe...

And there are hundreds of millions out there in parts of the world, East and West, who hate the Jews.

Hundreds of millions, and many states...vs. the 12-20 million Jews left, of a group which has faced constant persecution for 2000 years.

That doesn't give Israel the right to persecute Palestinians in the West Bank, or encroach on their territory...but it does give them the right to exist in the same security those Palestinians desire and, I think, most of us take for granted given the protection of a state.

Sorry... what's Israel for? I've managed to read all that yet miss the crucial bit of information.

FWIW, Napoleon wanted France to be a safe haven for Jews.

a lot of people hate and persecute gay people, where's the gay state? would they have the right to one if they fought for it?

So....... you think that the solution to any racial, cultural or religious tensions is for the minority group to escape to a country of their own?

^ to obiwanobiwan

Do you think that black communities in the USA, who may feel unsafe due to police heavy-handedness, should ship themselves off to the Congo?

A lot of libertarians feel hated and persecuted.
Where's the libertarian state?

Israel doesn't exist for Jews to be "safe." If "safety" was what these French Jews were after, they'd come to the United States, which has more Jews than Israel and none of the rocket attacks and suicide bombings.

Israel exists as the nation-state of the Jewish people. The Zionist project was not to give Jews a "safe" place to live. It was to give them a place to live where they were masters of their own destiny, without the need to depend on the goodwill of gentiles to live their lives. This ideology of Jewish autonomy is a large part of the reason that Israel and the United States are not treaty allies. No formal mutual defense pact exists.

How funny that a Jewish person like yourself doesn't even really understand Zionism.

A huge amount of antisemitism that exists today is *because* of the atrocities committed by the state of Israel. So, what is Israel for again?

You can be against the policies and actions of the state of Israel and not be anti-semitic.

You're right - and I am. But that doesn't change the fact on the ground that a lot of the rhetorical ammo that anti-semites have has to do with the crimes of Israel. If Israel really gave a shit about antisemitism they would be less fascist themselves.

Not to mention the fact that Israel's existence has created a whole new strain of anti-semitism - Muslims hating Jews - which scarcely existed before.

Allowing a free Palestine to exist is in Israel's best interest. The fact that they are too full of hate to see it says a lot about their morals.

"a lot of people hate and persecute gay people, where's the gay state? would they have the right to one if they fought for it?"

Yes. I've said previously that I think all groups should have a state, the inherent and admitted weakness of which being that you're naturally going to split hairs at some point and ask "What about the Cotton Knitters of America, THEY'RE a group, where's their state?" ;)

Leaving absurdities like that aside, however, I would say that, in a perfect world, there would be at least one state where one wouldn't have to be the minority and would thus enjoy the security of the majority. That's not to do away with multiculturalism, which I love, or the mixing of peoples, which I likewise love.

In that perfect world, there would be room enough for both mixing like we have today and states such as Israel and a theoretical Palestinian for the Palestinians or Kuridstan for the Kurds.

Racial and ethnic/regional tension is also a factor. It's extremely tense between Sunni and Shiite Muslims...Sunnis would be incensed if all Arab states were ruled by Shiites, and vice versa. They each have states where they are the majority and thus need not fear other cultures which may have centuries-old grudges persecuting them. Ditto the Jews, Palestinians, and other neighboring Arab states. You can point to times where things were "better" or "worse" under the rule of one power or another, but on the whole, it's fair to say a people will govern themselves more equitably than a foreign culture wherein they are "the other."

The options then are to eliminate "otherness" (which is good and can happen, and should be a go-to, and is often in the West, but I'd submit that the Middle East is so explosively entrenched right now that this option isn't going to fly there any time soon) or at least do the best to ensure everyone has at least one "safe zone" to be...

And in places like the Middle East, safe means NOT being in the minority under a group with a different ideology and centuries or even millenia of history against you to fall back on should tempers flare and things get ugly...or, in other words, what the Middle East knows as Monday to Thursday.

"The fact that they are too full of hate to see it says a lot about their morals."
Because Neo-Zionism is TOTALLY the only Zionist philosophy in Israel.

"So....... you think that the solution to any racial, cultural or religious tensions is for the minority group to escape to a country of their own?"

I take issue with your article, Jamiet.

THE solution?
No.
*A* solution?
Yes...and in the case of the Middle East especially, an important one.

Different methods work better in different regions...there is no one catch-all answer.

For that region and those people, I think states protecting minorities is the best solution *at this present moment.*

The fate of the Kurds vs. Saddam, the Palestinians and Jews alike, the Yazidi right now vs. ISIS, the Armenians vs. the Ottomans (if we stretch our borders a bit and include the old Ottoman Empire for a moment)...that being just a tiny handful of conflicts we could name...

For this region, statehood is the best solution in 2015. Maybe in future generations that won't be so necessary, but for now, while it isn't THE solution, it's A possible solution, and one which I would argue is more favorable now than alternatives (unless you can convince me that we can remove all that sense of otherness and all those grudges and integrate everyone peacefully? I don't think so, not right now, anyway.)

There will never be a "gay" nation because of biology--homosexuals aren't breeders.

"Do you think that black communities in the USA, who may feel unsafe due to police heavy-handedness, should ship themselves off to the Congo?"

That would be for themselves to determine, though it is worth noting some black thinkers in the Harlem Renaissance and 1960s did embrace Back to Africa movements. I'm happy with black people here, and I'd like to see racism and bigotry towards them be dealt with and disappear here...

But if they really felt as threatened as Jews, Palestinians, Kurds and others in the Middle East do (and some very well might) then that would again be up to them to determine...seeing as it's not my place to tell them where to go?

"Do you think that black communities in the USA, who may feel unsafe due to police heavy-handedness, should ship themselves off to the Congo?"

Only if they want to be eaten....

"A lot of libertarians feel hated and persecuted.
Where's the libertarian state?"

See, this is where I start to get pissed...

Because you're basically equating the persecution and mass slaughter of millions of Kurds, Palestinians, Jews, etc. over hundreds of years to...

Libertarians being miffed because Ron Paul lost and Rand Paul's a fuck.

Unless you can point to an instance of libertarians being put to the sword en masse to the tune of Saddam's mass extermination of the Kurds or the Holocaust, knock it off with that bullshit.

It's not cute, not glib, and insulting to the memories of those lost to facetiously draw that comparison.

Or do you look at rape statistics for women and pipe up "Yes, but what about MY suffering?" -_-

"For this region, statehood is the best solution in 2015."

What a shame then that Israel is intent on denying Palestinian statehood at all costs, up to and including mass murder of civilians.

"Israel doesn't exist for Jews to be "safe." If "safety" was what these French Jews were after, they'd come to the United States, which has more Jews than Israel and none of the rocket attacks and suicide bombings."

And yet these people flee France not for the US...but Israel.

They feel SAFER in a state where they are the majority, even with rocket attacks, than a state where they're the minority...again...

Because they were the minority in France, and THAT was supposed to be OK...
And in Russia, and THAT was supposed to be OK...
And in Germany, in Austria, in Poland...and THOSE were supposed to be safe..
In former Arab states...and THOSE were supposed to be safer, too...

I'm happy living here in Los Angeles County, but you'll forgive me not being convinced America will forever be safe and loving to the Jews when, oh, it wasn't 100 years ago, and as a small minority here, there's no guarantee it won't turn against the Jews over time...

Which given how often that's happened to the Jews over their history seems a reasonable concern--and if it doesn't to you, it certainly does to the Jews that just picked rockets in Jerusalem over suntans in Jacksonville.

"What a shame then that Israel is intent on denying Palestinian statehood at all costs, up to and including mass murder of civilians."

Which is why I oppose Israeli policy in the West Bank and agree with you on that point.

I think you're oversimplifying that somewhat--this is NOT a one-sided story, and anyone buying into the Israeli or Palestinian narrative full stop has themselves fully stopped thinking--but still...

Can you agree that statehood for these minorities is thus important...for Jews AND those Palestinians alike?

"The Zionist project was not to give Jews a "safe" place to live. It was to give them a place to live where they were masters of their own destiny, without the need to depend on the goodwill of gentiles to live their lives."

...Not depending on the goodwill of a foreign ruler to live...how is that NOT trying to find "a safe place to live? O.o

Do I NEED to list those instances of rule by non-Jews over Jews kinda sorta leading to the massacre of Jews? Are you really so poor with history you're going to argue that being "masters of their own destiny" ISN'T central to the safety of the Jewish people at this point (or frankly to most groups...generally, when a group isn't in charge of its destiny, bad things kinda sorta happen to them--Trail of Tears, anyone?)

"A huge amount of antisemitism that exists today is *because* of the atrocities committed by the state of Israel. So, what is Israel for again?"

Because before Israel there was a huge amount of antisemitism anyway...

Soooo...the choices seem to be 1. Antisemitism and no Jewish state OR 2. Antisemitism and you have a state and thus lots and lots and LOTS of guns and fighter planes with which to defend Jews with.

Are you really going to argue Antisemitism would disappear sans Israel?

That before Israel, in that glorious, Edenic world of barely-Post-WWII Europe and the Middle East, that life would've been Milk and Honey for the Jews sans Israel?

That somehow a group that's faced persecution for 2000 years would SUDDENLY see all that hatred go away and live in sunshine and rainbows...sans Israel?

But nope.
Of course not.
2000 years of hatred?
Nah!

It's ALL Israel...if Israel went away today, why, things would be lovely for Jews, right? Just look at the past--when things were REALLY great for the Jews, and there was no violent Antisemitism and the Jews NEVER needed to defend themselves at all...yep...

"2000 years of hatred?" I agree with your point, but having taken (AP) world history only a year ago, I'd point out that the Jews have been conquered, reconquered, and persecuted for some time over 2000 years.

"Allowing a free Palestine to exist is in Israel's best interest. The fact that they are too full of hate to see it says a lot about their morals."

1. Yes, it is in their best interests.

2. Funny thing--when you are promised a state by the United Nations, are then told by Palestinians and neighboring Arab States that you'll be wiped out for daring to accept a state (you know, the way the Palestinians are petitioning the UN now...which they could have had in 1947 if they hadn't declined the UN deal and gambled on being able to exterminate the Jews in the area?) and face an enemy which has, in its charter, the elimination of all Jews, period?

Yeah...you kinda sorta might have a hatred there.

Funny that it doesn't seem to say a lot about the Palestinians' character to you that Hamas can have that nice little "kill all Jews, men, women, and children"...

Why is that, Thucy?

"2000 years of hatred?" I agree with your point, but having taken (AP) world history only a year ago, I'd point out that the Jews have been conquered, reconquered, and persecuted for some time over 2000 years."

I'm just giving the Best Hits of A.D. ;)

Suffice it to say that it's been thousands of years, so I don't buy the argument that Antisemitism would just vanish or be less of a problem without Israel. People tend to find a way of letting themselves hate the Jews.

At least this way the Jews have a way of defending themselves from those that hate them and want to see them destroyed.

You really are missing the point, obiwanobiwan. Israel is an expression of Jews' desire for self-determination, not safety. If these French Jews just sought a safe, quiet life they would come to America. Antisemitism is virtually nonexistent here, especially violent antisemitism. American Jews are, a a group, the richest, most highly educated people in the world. Despite your pessimism, this status quo is unlikely to change since American Jews are fully integrated into the wider American culture.

If the Jews fleeing Europe sought only safety they'd move to Long Island. Instead they go to Israel because of the belief that this is their homeland. It's not about "safety." It's about sincerely held beliefs that Jews should have a homeland where they govern themselves, come what may. For all your tome-writing here this still seems to escape you.