goethe once wrote a poem starting like this:
"the world is like an anchovy salad"
there will always be bad literature. nothing to do about that. and not all of them do suck.

I can't speak on Mortal Instruments, Divergent, or Twilight, but I found the Hunger Games to be a fun read. Not necessarily deep or high level... but it was fun.

They've always existed, although they used to be called juveniles or schoolboy stories. It's just the Harry Potter series has convinced publishers to increase advertising for that market now that they see how much money can be made since kids now have it to spend. Most of the older series have died a deserved death.

A couple of decades ago the surviving series were things like the Hardy Boys or Nancy Drew where each book was more of a stand alone. Or for a theme series you had C. S. Lewis's Narnia.

And for those who might mention it,

3. If you cannot make your silly dystopian novel-or any novel--work within three chapters...you fail. Plain and simple. You have to impress a publisher far, far, FAR sooner than that to even get your foot in the door, so I'm sorry, I'm not sitting through 11 hours of an audiobook when the first three chapters of it are...BAD.

Well, hurtling between "bad," "dull," "illogical," and "oh my God are you fucking serious right now with that utter lack of even common sense?"

Again, not badly written at all, really (my only complaint about Veronica Roth's writing style-wise is that I really think it'd work better for either a 3rd-person perspective or a girl about 5 years older than her run-of-the-mill teen protagonist...because I'm sorry, teenage girls--and boys, for the matter--don't think or use the words Roth uses in her narration, they just don't...so it's not badly written, but if this girl was, well, maybe 22 or so instead of 15-6 or so I'd be a lot more forgiving here.)

But that premise is BAAAAAAAAD......and the execution doesn't help at all...

And unlike THG (which I likewise felt had a pretty silly premise, though I'll at least say that it seemed marginally less silly than this setup and marginally more original, though I don't know if that's more a point to THG or a point against Divergent) there isn't a semi-strong protagonist lead to carry you through it.

For as frustrating as the logic in that book is, AT LEAST I could get through it because the Katniss character is a pretty decent female lead for young adults (and even for just adults, really, though I still don't think she's that revolutionary...but she worked well enough.)

Not so here.

This character...I don't CARE if her special test (which is one of the dumbest tests I've ever heard of in my life) labels her as being honest, brave and intelligent (nice creation of a Mary Sue there, by the way)--

I'm not buying the intelligent part of it, pretty sketchy on the brave part, and while honesty is nice...I'd like to think that'd be more of a prerequisite for being a civilized person rather than a special character attribute.

And why even have "Young Adult Novels," may I ask?

I again don't get or agree with the concept of targeting books at "young adults"...I have faith kids can read adult novels with adult content in it just fine, it doesn't have to be high-school-ized, and I hate the mentality it creates in the publishing community--

That mass-produced series/franchises are more important than quality one-off bestsellers that can then lead to more novels (in a series or not), and the idea that everything needs to be catered to a gimmick and a niche (first it was magical schools, then paranormal romance, now it's dystopian romances.)

And it gives authors far, far too easy an out--

If the novel's praised, they get to enjoy praise...
If the novel's criticized, at all, they get to hide behind that most hated of phrases--

"It's just for KIDS."

That doesn't mean it has to be a pile of illogical, pandering crap...and while Divergent's not quite as bad as that, it's still the cherry on top of the shit sundae.

"why must they suck"?

well, as they almost all belong to them same subgenre, namely coming of age, the plot is usually quite similar - a kid, young adult or whatever growing up to become famous by fighting evil. they always have that mentor-figure who dies somewhere around 2/3rds of the story, a love interest and so on and so forth. this plus the fact that they're still targetted at a younger audience makes them more likely to "suck" (or what you understand by that).

I read a lot of YA novels back when I was a "YA". I hae mostly fond memories of well-known titles like Harry Potter, Narnia, Hardy Boys, as well as plenty of lesser-known titles.

Only a couple of years ago I read howl's Moving Castle and it's sequel Castle in the Air. They're the only YA novels I've read anything resembling recently that I can recall, but I enjoyed them. Bit of nostalgia you might say(I picked the titles up because I recalled seeing an animation of Howl's Moving Castle many years ago)

So, I haven't continued reading YA novels as a grown-ass man(21 now), and thus cannot comment on the newer titles you mention, I'm going to come out and defend YA novels- for kids certainly, and maybe for adults occasionally as a lighthearted change of pace. My two cents.

@obi: "If the novel's criticized, at all, they get to hide behind that most hated of phrases--

"It's just for KIDS." "

well, if an artsy book is criticized, the author can always say: "well, you didn't understand it then."

works both ways.

On a somewhat related note, my grandmother gave me Wind in the Willows awhile back. I've almost read it a few times, haven't quite gotten there, but I might.

Why do movies made from books aimed at a juvenile or young adult audience not meet your literary standards? Umm... how about because they're books aimed at a juvenile or young adult audience?

I think there are plenty of YA books that are worth a read. I haven't read Divergent or Twilight. I enjoyed reading Harry Potter and Hunger Games. I liked The Book Thief book, didn't see the movie. I thought the first Maze Runner book was interesting, didn't read the sequels. The Golden Compass is an excellent YA book that fell flat as a movie.

Why aren't you railing about the Cloudy With A Chance of Meatballs movie? Or Where The Wild Things Are? Why must movies made from picture books for preschoolers suck? I was bored as hell by the third page of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

For what it's worth, I'd easily chose to read The Hunger Games again and again rather than subject myself to Tess of The D'Urbervilles, which IIRC is on your top five sticky-page novels.

There are good YA books and bad YA books, just like there is good and bad anything.

"For what it's worth, I'd easily chose to read The Hunger Games again and again rather than subject myself to Tess of The D'Urbervilles, which IIRC is on your top five sticky-page novels."

Dude, Tess was an amazing book. What are you talking about?

"Teenagers don't want to read Shakespeare, believe it or not, and I'm the only one that finds it enjoyable to read the likes of Jack Kerouac, Cormac McCarthy, and Daniel Quinn."

1. I don't believe that, since I knew plenty that did in my day (and plenty that didn't, it's just a taste and age thing, like much else about high school...some kids like Shakespeare, some go all drama-nerd about him in school plays, and some sit there wondering why they have to sit through a 13-year old girl throwing her life away for a 17-year old boy she just met...another reason why R&J shouldn't be the play they use to introduce Shakespeare to kids, but I digress.)

2. I don't care for Kerouac, like McCarthy, don't know Quinn.

"Divergent wasn't even that bad."

3. Give me your defense of it, then, because while it wasn't THAT bad...it was still bad, at least by my reckoning.

"Why do you read those books anyway?"

4. Because as much as I love and go on about "the classics," I also care deeply about what's being written and being read NOW--since that'll both shape what kids read going forward and what the canon will have to say about this period of literature. I don't for a second think that Twilight and its ilk will get into the canon (though I do sometimes wonder how these novels will go away, if they do...just taking Twilight alone, it has been mighty fruitful and multiplied, so to play with that biological metaphor, what kind of mass extinction is going to end this trend in YA and adult novels, if it does end) but it still impacts the world we live in today.

What's more, I see these novels as a poison for writers, present and future.

It again sets a mindset in readers and publishers alike, that they want series and gimmicks rather than, if not quality literature, at least books that focused on being a good one-off book rather than having an eye towards creating a series or franchise.

Movies are having the same issue right now...

We focus and see so many franchises today that great one-off films are getting more marginalized in the public sphere, and I don't think that's a good thing at all.

Add to that the fact I think Twilight and Divergent in particular are pretty bad when it comes to presenting role models for kids (which I wouldn't mind if the books weren't marketed as "young adult" novels, but if you're going to market it to that demographic and do so openly and repeatedly, you have a different standard to live up to) and I just hate what these represent for the industry...

So the same way I keep on top of bad news, I keep on top of bad books.

"goethe once wrote a poem starting like this:
"the world is like an anchovy salad"
there will always be bad literature. nothing to do about that. and not all of them do suck."

1. True, and "The Merry Wives of Windsor" is one of the shittiest plays I've ever seen...and my all-time hero wrote that (the only joy I get from it is the relief of it reminding me that Shakespeare was mortal too...and that he, like so many of us, just needed to get shit done to get a quick payday sometimes.) :p

2. Yes, but the eternal presence of bad literature doesn't mean you shouldn't criticize it...criticism and praise are part of how literature (and social opinions) change.

3. Just for the hell of it, because it amuses me to no end...Mozart's poetry, everybody!

At night of farts there is no lack,
Which are let off, forsooth, with a powerful crack.
The king of farts came yesterday
Whose farts smelt sweeter than the may
...
Yet this I must add, that on Monday I'll have the honor, egad, to embrace you and kiss your hands so fair.
But first in my pants I'll shit, I swear.

^One of the greatest artistic geniuses in world history, everybody! ;)

again you're missing who's the audience, obi. if i could choose between teens reading YA novels or watching a shitty tv series, i am definitely going to pick the book. even if it's twilight.

Obi, you are an idiot. Your ideas are idiotic. Your understanding of literature and culture is idiotic. You are an idiot.

As a parent of honor roll "YA"-target kids, who are both in honor's English, the YA targeted books are drawing readers by droves. For any elistest piece of shit (YOU) that thinks this is bad because they are reading the "wrong" literature, you are just an idiot.

Frankly. Shakespeare is *grossly* over-rated by the "English class" teacher/professor community.

You're an idiot.

"well, as they almost all belong to them same subgenre, namely coming of age,"

True, but that doesn't HAVE to be bad is the thing!

The Henriad's coming of age story...in a way...
Some versions of the King Arthur story are like that...
David Copperfield's like that...
The Sorrows of Young Werther's a bit like that...
Hell, Harry Potter's like that, and it's not bad at all...

This is an old genre, and it doesn't have to be done badly...but they keep butchering it.

"the plot is usually quite similar - a kid, young adult or whatever growing up to become famous by fighting evil. they always have that mentor-figure who dies somewhere around 2/3rds of the story, a love interest and so on and so forth."

With the exception of the romance element (which yeah, almost all books today have it--thankfully Harry Potter at least waited a few books before it really got going with that...another reason why I'd argue it's the best of this bunch and the one that'll probably survive, and I hope it does) I agree, those are all tropes--

But have been for some time, and don't need to be done badly.

The first Star Wars movie (and trilogy) follows that formula almost to the T--and it's still considered a classic.

What's more, in the romance element--because it took a film and a half for it to really get going, I'd argue the whole Han Solo/Princess Leia thing worked there...and Ron/Hermione (despite Rowling apparently not liking it) worked reasonably well in HP because it took about three books for that to even develop at all, in even the smallest degree, and it was again a sort of opposites-attract sort of relationship that took multiple books to even happen...

Whereas Twilight, what's epigram that opens this book?

"About three things I was absolutely positive. First, Edward was a vampire. Second, there was part of him — and I didn't know how dominant that part might be — that thirsted for my blood. And third, I was unconditionally and irrevocably in love with him."

Ignoring for the fact that that's pretty hack writing, and unconditional love to a possibly-dangerous guy is a really, really shitty theme to be going with for a 16-year old girl or so in 2008...

That's right out of the gate. Bam.

That line doesn't appear in proper until chapter 9, but even chapters before that you get this starting, and again, this is the FIRST book...

It's rushed, it's contrived, it's hack writing, it's not good writing for kids, it's not good writing PERIOD...and as I've just given examples of works that made the romance angle work, it DOESN'T have to be that way.

"Obi, you are an idiot. Your ideas are idiotic. Your understanding of literature and culture is idiotic. You are an idiot."

Coming from you, krellin, I treat that like the WBC picketing my funeral--as the highest compliment imaginable.

are you looking for books to read, if so I suggest sci-fi. Even the 'young adult' stuff is much better (generally) than the band-wagon stuff.
I think that is the bigger problem nowadays, all the popular stuff has become too mainstream and authors are just trying to make a remake of the huge piles of trash that made loads of money. The spiral will keep going untill a new theme gets thrown out of proportion.
until then suck up to more shitty love stories and dystopian worlds

To the forum at large -- just as a reference point, our dear friend Obi a couple years ago choose to share with all of us a bit of *his own* writing. I think I can say with absolute certainty that Obi is just about the absolute worst writer I have ever read. His ability to convey ideas concisely and in an interesting manner is utterly lacking. Opposite to being concise, his ideas gushed out like a badly leaking faucet, simply spewing incoherent blather onto the page. Without a doubt, the *worst* attempt at fiction ever. Makes Divergent look like (wait for it) fucking Shakespeare compared to the shit that is Obi's writing.

So when you see him going on and on about what is and is not good literature, I will remind you that his complete and utter INability to recognize how much his own shit stinks is proof enough for me that Obi has *no* say in assessing any writing or literature --- and you would likewise do wise to completely ignore the fool.

For the record -- pretty much 100% of the forum feedback on Obi's attempt at writing was universally in favor of how much it *absolutely* sucked.


And Obi, if you want to dismiss my opinion of literature -- feel free. I 3.5'd and 4.0'd my way through honor's English in college, and my daughters are following in my footsteps at the high school level.

I'm fairly certain that my grasp of modern literature - both personally and through the eyes of my children - *far* exceeds your perverse, narrow-minded and frankly bigoted view of literature.

I would have a hard time saying that Hunger Games is a better book than Divergent. More original? Much of Hunger Games seems derived from another book, Battle Royale. I think both author's styles of writing are lackluster, but, as far as ya books go, they're both decent- "B". Certainly not on par with Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, but not a bad quick read in my opinion. Btw, she got bravery, intellect, and selflessness- not honesty. As someone who has read the book, I am rather surprised you got that wrong...

"I again don't get or agree with the concept of targeting books at "young adults"...I have faith kids can read adult novels with adult content in it just fine,"

Here's the thing - kids don't read adult novels. They want books with characters they can identify with, who look like them, act like them, and share the same feelings they do. YA books have lots of romance, angst, sexuality, gossip, and family issues because that's what teens can identify with. Teens don't see themselves in classic literature.

There's always going to be bad literature. For every "Brothers Karamazov", there are a hundred shitty romance novels that suck just as hard as Divergent. Picking and choosing popular novels and comparing them against your view of "good literature" is always going to be a one sided argument. Of course Divergent sucks. Of course Twilight sucks. But here's the kicker - kids LOVE them and kids read them like crazy. As a librarian myself, I personally don't care what the book is as long as its being read. A teenager who starts off reading Twilight is going to develop into the next Shakespeare lover. It doesn't matter that their first books suck, they get kids to read and then they can develop as readers and grow to love books that really are classic literature.

YA literature has grown and developed in leaps and bounds, even just in the last two decades. Pre-90s, teenagers could read "The Boxcar Children", "Babysitters Club", "Encyclopedia Brown" or any other of the dry, moralizing garbage that called itself "teen novels". Harry Potter was the real driver of growth in the YA market. An entire generation of kids grew up alongside the HP characters. Harry Potter wasn't just a cool story - it was radically different from other teen series. It didn't moralize to kids. It didn't always end happily. Characters died. Adults fought with each other. Friends didn't get along. It was realistic, even if it did take place in a fantasy world.

Today, there are just as many quality YA books released each year as there are adult literature. Personally, I think if you stick your nose up at YA books, you're missing out on an entire genre of quality literature. Go read "The Book Thief", "Eleanor & Park," "The Fault in Our Stars", or "The Abslolutely True Diary of a Part Time Indian" and tell me they aren't amazing books. You'll be doing yourself a favor.

"As a parent of honor roll "YA"-target kids, who are both in honor's English, the YA targeted books are drawing readers by droves. For any elistest piece of shit (YOU) that thinks this is bad because they are reading the "wrong" literature, you are just an idiot."

I don't give these books extra credit for doing what books should do in the FIRST PLACE...do you get extra pay for doing the job you're supposed to do anyway, krellin?

And again--Harry Potter and, hell, Roald Dahl, Judy Blume, J.R.R. Tolkein, C.S. Lewis...

PLENTY of authors have done this and done this well with GOOD books...

Why should I let bad YA slide when good books did what they were supposed to do--draw kids to reading--and, you know, didn't completely and utterly suck?

"Frankly. Shakespeare is *grossly* over-rated by the "English class" teacher/professor community."

You're free to your opinion...but even if he was overrated, he'd still be one of the most important authors to teach your kids--

Because after the KJV Bible, old Shakes is the most quoted guy in the English language...so learning about him is one of the best ways of learning about the language and how it developed itself (coming from someone who's taught English to ESL learners via the Bard and, hey, whaddya know, got them to pass and get them work. Funny what good literature can do.)

Bottom line is that Obi knows absolutely nothing about the YA genre outside of movies. Little hypocritical to denounce an entire genre based on what's popular.

I thought the original point was why there are so many better books that seem to get thrown aside for the lesser but yet more popular books. but then I was just skimming the essays.

also my comments always seem to be out of time sync with the whole argument

As a person these YA novels are targeted to who has enjoyed several (Hunger Games and Harry Potter) of the books obi so despises, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

My favorite part of the YA novels I have read is shockingly different worlds that are created. I can't argue that the plot or the writing style of The Hunger Games was amazing, but the dystopian world created fascinates me.
I haven't read Divergent, but I did my primary motivation would be learning of the world created.

Obi - self-fulling prophecy - English teachers cramming Shakey bullshti down kids throats every year doesn't mean it's still the best there is. It just pretentious moronic English teachers cramming Shakey down kid's throats -- and half of them don't know shit about how to teach it - they just do it because it's the "right thing to do".

There is a vast library (literally) of literature since Shakey wrote his bullshit, and there is plenty of literature that is as good, as thoughtful, as intellectually stimulating, etc as Shakes. Ty Cobb was a great baseball player....but he's not the greatest. Maybe once he was....now he's not. Same with literature, moron.

But to idiots like you, if you don't embrace Shakey then you are somehow deficient. Thank god I live in a world where we are allowed to explore OTHER idas and not all be stamped into the fucking Obi mold where we ALL MUST think that some narrow list of literature is the only shit worthy of reading.

God what a closed minded idiot you are.

Trust me, the world would go on just fine if all the Shakey books were to disappear and what remained was everything else.

Moron.

In Obi's world, if you are not training for a triathalon, then you aren't properly working out, and ought to therefore just sit your fat ass on the couch and do nothing.

THAT is the analogy to how this perverse fool looks at literature. If it isn't exactly what Obi think is the only good literature, it isn't worth having around.

What a perverse and disgusting moron he is.

And did I mention that Obi - this English major - can't write his way out of a paper bag? Yeah...the guy that can hardly convey his own thoughts in a coherent manner thinks he is a good judge of literature. That's like a 600 pound dude on an oxygen bottle telling you the best way to tighten your abs...

Moron...