The Pakistani church massacre killed only Pakistanis. The Kenyan mall siege killed people of multiple nationalities (by the design of the attackers) and thus attracted far more international attention.

Also, the attacks in Kenya are allegedly al Qaeda related, and anything with that label is automatically more interesting to American news-viewers.

Everywhere Christians are being persecuted. Syria, Egypt, Sudan, Pakistan, Malaysia etc. Its because most of the time they don't pick up a weapon and fight back.

We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering.
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.

It is good to know that there are still some real Christians left in the world.

Lethal self-defense presents quite a dilemma for a Christian. Anyone know why that is?

thou shalt not kill?

Gee. Maybe it has something to do with the Garden of Gethsemane and Christ's arrest?

It's not much of a dilemma really, is it? It's rather clear cut in fact.

Actually, GF, the proper translation would be "The shall not murder". Do a little research into the original Hebrew and you will see the word has a connotation of "without just cause".

"Thou shalt not kill" in Modern English is better translated "Don't commit murder." Killing per se is not the issue--It's killing illegally. So most Christians believe that they can serve as police officers, soldiers, security guards, etc. as long as what they are doing is legal. But for personal self-defense, here's the problem as I see it. When Christians die, we believe that we are going to be be with Jesus just like the thief on the cross. But when a non-Christian dies, that's an eternity away from God. So isn't it better for a Christian to let himself or herself be killed than to kill a non-Christian?? There's the dilemma, and the reason missionaries have died without defending themselves.

That is completely illogical. The person who kills you and makes you a martyr is free to go on killing others who may not be saved. By killing him and saving yourself, you are only condemning one soul. But not defemnding yourself, you may well be condemning addiitonal souls of his victims.

By the way, the reason it is illogical is because the logic you present only works if one person can only ever kill one other person. But as long as one can continue to kill more people, killing them in self defense is not only justified but is protecting other innocents who may not yet know Christ.

In fact, allowing him to kill you is selfish. It says "I only care about my soul" instead of "I care about the souls of all these other people this person may kill after me". So voluntarily dying at a killers hands is selfish and a sin.

http://i.qkme.me/3pmxpn.jpg

@ Draug

The idea is to save the killer, is it not? He is the only one in danger of an eternity of suffering. There is nothing illogical about it.

Pakistan is a very violent place where such attacks are fairly normal. Kenya is a peaceful place and this was more of an international incident.

As far as better translations of the commandments go, the fact is that what exists in the Bible is "Thou shalt not kill". It is not "Shalt not commit murder" or "Shalt not cause death without a Security Council resolution". Whether the meaning of the Bible 1000s of years ago was different is irrelevent. It's meaning today is clear. Ask any child and they will tell you with complete confidence and clarity what "Thou shalt not kill" means.

To quote Jesus " I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it"

Kenya is peaceful? Where in the world did you get that idea?

With the exception of the political violence a couple years back, when has Kenya had a problem with political violence? Have they had a problem with civil war or military coups? Is it generally unsafe for tourists to visit?

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/songs/kenya/

Putin, they have fighting *every election season*...

Maybe it peaked in 2007/8 - we won't know for awhile if that's the case - but there is still plenty of violence.

I disagree. Every one of his future victims is at risk. Your death will not save his soul. Period. But his death may give them a chance to be saved if they aren't.

In fact, murder is a mortal sin according to the Catholic church therefore your death seals his fate for eternity and condemns him to hell.

And, by the way Putin, the American Cancer Society group that was scheduled to go to Nairobi this past summer and offer breast screenings for women got cancelled because they felt it was unsafe.

"In fact, murder is a mortal sin according to the Catholic church therefore your death seals his fate for eternity and condemns him to hell."

If you want evidence that you're wrong I don't think you could do much better than agreement from the Catholic Church ;)

I don't actually believe in mortal sin being a practicing Lutheran, but a Catholic letting themself die at a murderer's hand is sealing both their fates according to their own faith.

It still gets over 1.25 million tourists a year.

In 2007-2008, there was heavy violence. This year there were minor disturbances. "Every" election season matters little because there been so few elections in Kenya's history. THis year the disturbances were minor, and the elections were held to be free and fair.

Okay, Putin. You are free to believe that a nation whose president is wanted by the ICC for orchestrating the murder of over a thousand people is not violent.

Brazil receives over 5 million tourists a year. Turkey is the sixth-most-popular country in the world for tourists with well over 31 million a year. 22 million people visited Mexico this past year. Are these countries peaceful? No, but they have safe spots for tourists, just as Nairobi was believed to be in Kenya prior to the mall siege. There are more examples.

But I'm talking to the guy that used to praise North Korea.