Citizenship and dying children

[orathaic]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47506145

Why is this one girl, grooms at age 15 online, trafficed to Syria, married off and sexually abused by her husband. Why is she more important than any other young girl who has lost a child due to war, poverty, and the failure of the capitalist system of distributing resources to protect them?

Why do we place such a high value on 'citizenship' this made up concept which the British foreign office demonstrates can just be removed when inconvenient anyway?

What alternatives do we have, we face multiple migrant crises across the globe, and the ideas of citizenship and borders (border walls) restricting movement are just bandages. They may reduce the flow of people and resources. But they do nothing to reduce the reason for that flow.

Do we not have a duty to all people, as citizens of the world?

[Octavious]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the first paragraph.

As for the second, citizenship and the nation state is pretty much vital to allow different societies of people to pursue their own values. To take the abortion issue as an example, the nation state allowed parts of the world to allow the practice far sooner than if the world acted as one global community. I would be extremely surprised if it turned out you would prefer the implementation of such laws to have been delayed for the sake of some daft citizens of the world ideology. The benefits of the nation state, the freedom of societies to live life according to their own values, far outweighs the drawbacks

[Senlac]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the first paragraph.

As for the second, citizenship and the nation state is pretty much vital to allow different societies of people to pursue their own values. To take the abortion issue as an example, the nation state allowed parts of the world to allow the practice far sooner than if the world acted as one global community. I would be extremely surprised if it turned out you would prefer the implementation of such laws to have been delayed for the sake of some daft citizens of the world ideology. The benefits of the nation state, the freedom of societies to live life according to their own values, far outweighs the drawbacks

Yep. I’ve lived my life on the basis that if you don’t like where you’re living, find a country where you will & go there, importantly by making yourself valuable to that country. You don’t pitch up with nothing but a begging bowl after jumping the border. Repeat as necessary.
Without different countries to choose from, with differing values, it’s not possible to dump the trash you don’t like, in order to find better.
It’s a popular fiction that you can change where you are for the better. England in the late 70’s was deeply unpleasant for a young recently graduated scientist. I hear thousands of complaints from young graduates in England that they cannot get satisfactory work, neither could I, mate!!! Nothing has changed & won’t I promise you.
But I did something about it, thanks to the fact not everywhere is run like England. Without nations you have no options.

[Vaporwave]

I've ended up envying people that claim refugee status. They have a higher chance of staying than any other person who loves the US and isn't wealthy.

I find it unfair that some hop and are allowed to stay, some cases are tragic and it's understandable, but some do it because they heard it's possible.

Btw, I really don't wanna judge people's situations. All I know is that it's practically impossible to visit the US without being wealthy af, the opportunity to receive visas are scarce and the requirements are strict.

Now, you see why someone could be angry when others get it for free.

Be grateful every day that you were born American.

[Senlac]

I've ended up envying people that claim refugee status. They have a higher chance of staying than any other person who loves the US and isn't wealthy.

I find it unfair that some hop and are allowed to stay, some cases are tragic and it's understandable, but some do it because they heard it's possible.

Btw, I really don't wanna judge people's situations. All I know is that it's practically impossible to visit the US without being wealthy af, the opportunity to receive visas are scarce and the requirements are strict.

Now, you see why someone could be angry when others get it for free.

Be grateful every day that you were born American.

Again nothing has changed here either. In 1981 I pursued emigration to many destinations amongst them USA, with my shiny new BSc (Hons). No bloody chance! I did manage to move there 18 years later & eventually became citizen.
I had something to offer that was valued second time around. This is the way the world works for everyone (& should).

[Vaporwave]

I've ended up envying people that claim refugee status. They have a higher chance of staying than any other person who loves the US and isn't wealthy.

I find it unfair that some hop and are allowed to stay, some cases are tragic and it's understandable, but some do it because they heard it's possible.

Btw, I really don't wanna judge people's situations. All I know is that it's practically impossible to visit the US without being wealthy af, the opportunity to receive visas are scarce and the requirements are strict.

Now, you see why someone could be angry when others get it for free.

Be grateful every day that you were born American.

Again nothing has changed here either. In 1981 I pursued emigration to many destinations amongst them USA, with my shiny new BSc (Hons). No bloody chance! I did manage to move there 18 years later & eventually became citizen.
I had something to offer that was valued second time around. This is the way the world works for everyone (& should).

That's a wonderful story, after so many years, finally getting it feels like a real achievement. Congratulations

[orathaic]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the first paragraph.

As for the second, citizenship and the nation state is pretty much vital to allow different societies of people to pursue their own values. To take the abortion issue as an example, the nation state allowed parts of the world to allow the practice far sooner than if the world acted as one global community. I would be extremely surprised if it turned out you would prefer the implementation of such laws to have been delayed for the sake of some daft citizens of the world ideology. The benefits of the nation state, the freedom of societies to live life according to their own values, far outweighs the drawbacks

OK, first of all, not having a citizenship requirement for residency/working would not necessitate not having any legal differences. You could simply look at the US or EU, any citizen can live in any part of these multi-state regions, and the countries/states can have different laws.

It actually allows you move to a place where the customs are more closely aligned to you own. This has huge advantages imo, but unfortunately we currently have a massive wealth inequality - born from centuries of Imperialism - which means at the moment we would see many economic migrants rather than cultural migrants...

As for the first paragraph, I did have one typo. Girl of 15 was groomed online and trafficked to IS / Syria, you haven't heard about her? She recently had her British citizenship revoked.

[Octavious]

I have, yes. My understanding is that the 19 year old woman neither believes she was groomed, that she was trafficked, nor that she was abused. Indeed, she seems to have a great deal of affection for her husband. There are plenty of potential arguments here regarding the age of criminal responsibility and the like which I'm not particularly interested in going into, and frankly the facts of the matter are hazy at best. I am somewhat surprised that you are so certain of them, and have been so quick to dismiss her own testimony in favour of a weak and helpless female victim narrative.

As for removing citizenship, I have to admit that I agree with yourself and President Trump on this. I don't see how revoking it is at all helpful to the situation.

[Senlac]

“It actually allows you move to a place where the customs are more closely aligned to you own. This has huge advantages imo, but unfortunately we currently have a massive wealth inequality - born from centuries of Imperialism - which means at the moment we would see many economic migrants rather than cultural migrants...”

What you say is true but to blame “imperialism”, get over it.
I lived many years in southern africa. Zimbabwe was prosperous in the early 80’s, Mugabe had recently come to power. It was called the “Bread Basket of Africa” & a net food exporter EVERY year. Tourism, Tobacco made the currency strong. Whatever the opinion of the previous white minority government, they had left a strong economic legacy.
In the years I was in the area until the early 90’s more and more Zimbabweans showed up in neighbouring countries desperate for any work. Mining, farming, anything, because their families were starving. Lesotho, Botswana, Swasiland, South Africa anywhere for well paid work. They economy was crumbling, no gasoline, insufficient glass for bottles, no cigarette lighters, even no bloody cheese (I remember from one vacation)!
Now it’s not a bread basket, it’s a basket case. Famine is commonplace, they export next to nothing, using the US$ as currency! They destroyed it.
South Africa is headed down the same road, they expropriate the land from capable commercial farmers & then go about starving.

Imperialism has not impacted Zimbabwe for 40+ years at least. Yet they’ve been providing “economic migrants” to southern African nations for decades.
It’s just a weak excuse & apologist narrative for incompetence & corruption. Yes the people are desperate, so would anyone be desperate under the circumstances, but don’t blame imperialism. It’s embarrassing.

[orathaic]

I am not certain, of course a 15 year old is not a 7 year old, and I haven't heard her testimony; but my point is not that she made her decision and should live with the consequences; it is that many non-British citizens have their children die before the age of 5 due to war and poverty. That the only reason this one woman is special is because she was until recently considered a British citizen.

It highlights the political use of citizenship, if the state can just remove citizenship from those it dislikes (I mean sure, if she has committed crimes, have her put on trial in the UK for that, and let her face justice...). The closest equivalent example I can think of is the Japanese-Americans interned during World War 2, just because powerful people were afraid; not because they had evidence of conspiracy to commit crimes...

Fine, if citizenship is political, then I'm being political about it.

[Octavious]

I am not certain, of course a 15 year old is not a 7 year old, and I haven't heard her testimony; but my point is not that she made her decision and should live with the consequences; it is that many non-British citizens have their children die before the age of 5 due to war and poverty. That the only reason this one woman is special is because she was until recently considered a British citizen.

Oh, I see. Sorry, I didn't see what you were getting at before. You're actually wrong, she's not special because she's British. There have been a couple of hundred other ex-ISIS Brits who have returned home without any media fanfare. In all honesty I have no idea why her case got so much attention. I assume it's purely because she happens to be the one a journalist happened to find for an interview, but I could be wrong about that.

As for citizenship giving special privileges, I'm very much in favour of that. The world is a big place, and I find it reassuring to think that the leaders of a part of it will make me a priority purely because I was born there. I am more important than any other nationality to the British government, you are more important than any other nationality to the Irish government, and even a Frenchman is important to the French. I rather like that system.

[orathaic]

Oh, I see. Sorry, I didn't see what you were getting at before. You're actually wrong, she's not special because she's British. There have been a couple of hundred other ex-ISIS Brits who have returned home without any media fanfare. In all honesty I have no idea why her case got so much attention. I assume it's purely because she happens to be the one a journalist happened to find for an interview, but I could be wrong about that.

As for citizenship giving special privileges, I'm very much in favour of that. The world is a big place, and I find it reassuring to think that the leaders of a part of it will make me a priority purely because I was born there. I am more important than any other nationality to the British government, you are more important than any other nationality to the Irish government, and even a Frenchman is important to the French. I rather like that system.

I see what you are saying, and I will address it perhaps below; but to the issue of revoking citizenship.

Perhaps the fanfare has been spread by the left, as a reaction to the govt. But what was the time line? Journalist interviews girl, UK home office decides not to help her, realises that they need to have her citizenship revoked if they're not going to help... More media kicks off...

I was going to go so far as to call the left hypocritical on this, though I suspect they are the same people who actually do support foreign aid to help those non-brits who happen to have higher child mortality rates. So perhaps I'm being less generous than I should (and there are valid arguments for not offering aid, like development aid doesn't seem to work, and poverty in our own countries remains a problem which should be addressed - where we can have the biggest impact... But often there is an idea that Others aren't like us, so we shouldn't feel any obligation to help them.)

As for the special privileges. Yeah, it is great to have a nation state fight for your rights and protect you. I know Baha'i activists in Ireland who have in the past pushed for the Irish govt to put pressure on Iran to stop persecuting Baha'is in Iran; it is not about citizenship, it is about preventing discrimination where possible.

My point, in the general case, would be the need to help other nations develop (and not necessarily through development aid, which has failed to achieve this end in 60 years of trying) and by helping everyone the migrant crisis can be addressed - in the places that matter, the countries migrants are leaving.

Then you could argue for free movement of people, without limits. But most people actually like their own cultures, and without the economic incentives there would be less reason for people to move (tourism not withstanding).

Sure people still flee for other reasons, lgbt folks fleeing persecution being the first thing to come to mind...

[flash2015]

@Seniac, so where haven't you lived (yet)?

[Senlac]

@Seniac, so where haven't you lived (yet)?

Lol! Left England as a disillusioned youth after University.
12+ years living/working in southern africa (6 different nations)
Excessive violence made family life dangerous. Back to England briefly.
12+ years California, where my boys are still living & working with families.
Now I’m past all that energetic stuff, lazing in Costa Rica 7+ years.

When I was a boy on holiday in Norway I saw such beauty, I was never going to stick in one place & put up with it. This world has fantastic opportunities & fun every step of the way.

[Durga]

@Seniac, so where haven't you lived (yet)?

Lol! Left England as a disillusioned youth after University.
12+ years living/working in southern africa (6 different nations)
Excessive violence made family life dangerous. Back to England briefly.
12+ years California, where my boys are still living & working with families.
Now I’m past all that energetic stuff, lazing in Costa Rica 7+ years.

When I was a boy on holiday in Norway I saw such beauty, I was never going to stick in one place & put up with it. This world has fantastic opportunities & fun every step of the way.

My life goals tbh

[MajorMitchell]

Gee hasn't Costa Rica done well as a beneficiary of a benevolent USA deciding that Costa Rica was a part of it's territories in such a consultative and democratic way clearly demonstrating its level of respect for the citizens of Costa Rica.
PS @vaporwipe .. there's more than a few of us outside the USA who are damn glad we were born where we were born. Want to impress us ? Then start to effectively solve your domestic problems like opioid addiction as a result of the wonderful behaviour of the pharmaceutical industry.
Just love the Uber business model & business practices. Based in the Mafia was it ?

[Senlac]

“Gee hasn't Costa Rica done well as a beneficiary of a benevolent USA deciding that Costa Rica was a part of it's territories in such a consultative and democratic way clearly demonstrating its level of respect for the citizens of Costa Rica.“

I’m a US citizen living in Costa Rica & completely confused by this statement?
Americans I meet here love Costa Rica & almost universally Costa Ricans are friendly towards Americans. The people & nations have generally got along well for over 100 years without conflict & with respect for each other.
Whatever your point is requires clarification, if there is a point.