M89: Baldurs Gate Mafia Game Thread

[worcej]

Probably worcej, but I doubt we have the numbers, and I’m not even highly confident that he’s the best non-sweet shot anyway.

The brief argument for worc:
• Fox wanted it and has basically been the only consistent bright spot for town since I joined

• worc is historically insanely paranoid of me. I don’t remember the exact game now (I thought it was M80, but the public record of that game isn’t helpful; I think it was in the Discord server for that game) but there was a game not that long ago where I was outed town PR and worc, as another town PR, seriously weighed fakeclaiming guilty scan on me because he didn’t believe me. I think he had the ability to commute me and save me from a kill but intentionally didn’t do it because it allowed me to be nightkilled and flipped to resolve my alignment. (This part might be misremembered in fairness)
Point being dude is never comfortable with me being town while I’m alive lol. And I don’t fault him for that. Rather I “fault” that he seems not to have strong views on me or any concern about my alignment… that suggests to me he has the answers

Your memory isn't too far off - I was overly paranoid of you in that PR game and it wasn't one of my best games because of my hyper tunneling on you. Since those games (I think they were in the M60's, but don't quote me on that), I've tried to work on not tunneling as a player - I don't want to death tunnel and try to keep my eyes open and entertain other reasoning.

In terms of me being paranoid now, I'm just not because you've been over-shadowed by other's actions to me. You're not playing the same as you used to and I don't feel like you're engaged with the game like you used to be. I always cringed at your logic and reasoning but you're not really doing that this game.

Perhaps my weakness this game is focusing too much on the low participants (yoyo, Dousing, and Monarch) while voting mostly to protect my townreads. I've felt like I've had to not vote my town reads more than actually vote people I think are scum.

So are you locked in on sweet or can we move off to another target. With us three and sweet we can swing someone else out today

This is a gross post.

[sweetandcool]

I guess I shouldn't give up but it is hopeless.

##VOTE Will

It's possible Eden saw how bad Will's "scumslip" was and rather than bussing for the sake of bussing he felt compelled to call it out.

Still, if we flip Will I don't see how we avoid a MK on me next phase.

[Col7by]

whatever

##vote sweetandcool

this doesn’t feel right. but it’s clear nothing else is happening until this does.

Fine.

I don’t want a sweet wagon collapse. But if it’s coming. ##vote themad. Good alternative.

If I’m voting a lurker player why not will who in the past is known for being helpful?

[aarodactyl]

I have a break so I can catch up now. I checked the bot and see sweets is end voting himself. This feels very bad but I guess I’ll see what I missed.

[sweetandcool]

[...Snip...]

I decided that today if I came under pressure I would fake claim a harmless PR, and Iatrophibe seemed perfect. It was purely self defense rather than any sort of reaction test. I have heard claims of it being a way to possibly draw out Town PRs. However, this scum tactic has literally never been employed in all of my games (over 10 games). I think fear of this tactic has caused veteran players to be unreasonably fearful of Town Fakeclaims. Last game Town would have been eviscerated if I, the Town PR, hadn't been willing to roleswap with two different players.

So yeah, not going to apologize for my claims, though yes my execution of the Iatrophobe claim was disgusting due to unforseen business IRL.

I've been a vocal proponent/pusher that town players should never fake a PR claim just to save themselves and that it's anti-town because it can blow up and cause either a PR to CC the person or blow a miskill on the second highest wagon at some point.

Just look at my death last game as verification of my commitment to this ideology - I ensured I died so that you (The PR that broke the game open as you already know) would live because I knew my death would help the gamestate move forward.

The fact you did the cop scan claim shit and then this self defense move doesn't make me think you're town, it leads me to conclude you're more likely the last scum PR that hadn't been used yet and are just desperately trying to live.

However, my fake claim actually has absolved me:

1. I claimed Iatrophobe. Page 323, 3:02 time left.
2. Vecna is the first person to (vaguely) acknowledge my claim. Page 328, 1:44 time left.
3. Literally nobody reacts to my claim and the next mention is by me. Page 332, 25 minutes left.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Suppose sweetandcool is Mafia. Mafia have Daychat. So Mafia knows sweetandcool is going to claim Iatrophobe. With 3:02 left of the phase sweetandcool makes his claim.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim. Mafia doesn't acknowledge the claim because:

1. Mafia is COMPLETELY AFK (fucking unlikely)
2. Mafia doesn't want to look bad in retrospect when sweetandcool eventually flips).
3. Insert reason I can't think of.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim because most town players suck ass at identifying soft-claims. I'm so bad at seeing non-hardclaims when I am town because I'm not looking for them, I'm looking for scum. It's a completely different mindset - I've discussed this in detail in a GT before and stand by it.

Is (2) reasonable?
No, not really.

We have seen plenty examples in this game and others where players of any alignment miss out on crucial game developments, mainly vig shots. A great example is Bunny just recently finding out that Fox claimed Archer. Or when the Balki v Dip duel occured several people had to be told what was happening. Generally when a PR claim occurs it is not uncommon to tell people about it.

My claim was ignored so it would have been natural for someone, be they Town or Mafia, to point it out at some point. With me being a top wagon, I find it hard to believe my scummates would not nudge the info for 2.5 hours. And instead I would have to come back on, despite being desperately busy IRL, and claim again.

Basically, you would have to believe the scum team was literally AFK for the last three hours of the day or the scum team was performing a major Fuck You towards sweetandcool, or it was planned in advance that sweetandcool would be absolved by the very case I am putting before you now.
-------------------------------------------------------

Look, I know I've been shit, but I'm not the shit you need to DK.

I don't think scum need to point anything out here because of the daychat. They can log it there and leave it out of the thread.

You've been preaching the value of daychat so much but seem to not employ it here. Why?

It was not a soft claim I literally claimed a role. I said "I am Iatrophobe".

You call that a soft claim?

I'm going to fake claim PR in many other games by the way, so buckle up.

[Ezio]

whatever

##vote sweetandcool

this doesn’t feel right. but it’s clear nothing else is happening until this does.

Fine.

I don’t want a sweet wagon collapse. But if it’s coming. ##vote themad. Good alternative.

If I’m voting a lurker player why not will who in the past is known for being helpful?

I really *hate* how Bunny is playing this phase. It feels just awful. So so so so so so so awful. "I don't want this wagon to collapse but rather than being on the wagon to reinforce it, I'll vote somewhere else that's very plausible".
Eden having misgivings about Sweet is giving me misgivings.

[brainbomb]

sweetandcool (6) worcej Ezio foodcoats TheMadMonarch President Eden sweetandcool*
JustAGuyNamedWill (2) aarodactyl sweetandcool
President Eden (1) JustAGuyNamedWill

TheMadMonarch (1) BunnyGo


Bonatogether
Col7by

Sweet is scheduled to die

Failure to vote today will result in modkill

[worcej]

[...Snip...]

I decided that today if I came under pressure I would fake claim a harmless PR, and Iatrophibe seemed perfect. It was purely self defense rather than any sort of reaction test. I have heard claims of it being a way to possibly draw out Town PRs. However, this scum tactic has literally never been employed in all of my games (over 10 games). I think fear of this tactic has caused veteran players to be unreasonably fearful of Town Fakeclaims. Last game Town would have been eviscerated if I, the Town PR, hadn't been willing to roleswap with two different players.

So yeah, not going to apologize for my claims, though yes my execution of the Iatrophobe claim was disgusting due to unforseen business IRL.

I've been a vocal proponent/pusher that town players should never fake a PR claim just to save themselves and that it's anti-town because it can blow up and cause either a PR to CC the person or blow a miskill on the second highest wagon at some point.

Just look at my death last game as verification of my commitment to this ideology - I ensured I died so that you (The PR that broke the game open as you already know) would live because I knew my death would help the gamestate move forward.

The fact you did the cop scan claim shit and then this self defense move doesn't make me think you're town, it leads me to conclude you're more likely the last scum PR that hadn't been used yet and are just desperately trying to live.

However, my fake claim actually has absolved me:

1. I claimed Iatrophobe. Page 323, 3:02 time left.
2. Vecna is the first person to (vaguely) acknowledge my claim. Page 328, 1:44 time left.
3. Literally nobody reacts to my claim and the next mention is by me. Page 332, 25 minutes left.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Suppose sweetandcool is Mafia. Mafia have Daychat. So Mafia knows sweetandcool is going to claim Iatrophobe. With 3:02 left of the phase sweetandcool makes his claim.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim. Mafia doesn't acknowledge the claim because:

1. Mafia is COMPLETELY AFK (fucking unlikely)
2. Mafia doesn't want to look bad in retrospect when sweetandcool eventually flips).
3. Insert reason I can't think of.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim because most town players suck ass at identifying soft-claims. I'm so bad at seeing non-hardclaims when I am town because I'm not looking for them, I'm looking for scum. It's a completely different mindset - I've discussed this in detail in a GT before and stand by it.

Is (2) reasonable?
No, not really.

We have seen plenty examples in this game and others where players of any alignment miss out on crucial game developments, mainly vig shots. A great example is Bunny just recently finding out that Fox claimed Archer. Or when the Balki v Dip duel occured several people had to be told what was happening. Generally when a PR claim occurs it is not uncommon to tell people about it.

My claim was ignored so it would have been natural for someone, be they Town or Mafia, to point it out at some point. With me being a top wagon, I find it hard to believe my scummates would not nudge the info for 2.5 hours. And instead I would have to come back on, despite being desperately busy IRL, and claim again.

Basically, you would have to believe the scum team was literally AFK for the last three hours of the day or the scum team was performing a major Fuck You towards sweetandcool, or it was planned in advance that sweetandcool would be absolved by the very case I am putting before you now.
-------------------------------------------------------

Look, I know I've been shit, but I'm not the shit you need to DK.

I don't think scum need to point anything out here because of the daychat. They can log it there and leave it out of the thread.

You've been preaching the value of daychat so much but seem to not employ it here. Why?

It was not a soft claim I literally claimed a role. I said "I am Iatrophobe".

You call that a soft claim?

I'm going to fake claim PR in many other games by the way, so buckle up.

I consider anything that isn't an explicit "hard claim" to be soft claims because of shit like what you did supposedly being fake and also shit brainbomb has done in the past.

Fake claiming PRs is anti-town far more often than it's pro-town.

In regards to future games, play them how you want to because it's not up to me to dictate what you do, but I'll have no sympathy D1'ing you from now on lol...

[Ezio]

[...Snip...]

I decided that today if I came under pressure I would fake claim a harmless PR, and Iatrophibe seemed perfect. It was purely self defense rather than any sort of reaction test. I have heard claims of it being a way to possibly draw out Town PRs. However, this scum tactic has literally never been employed in all of my games (over 10 games). I think fear of this tactic has caused veteran players to be unreasonably fearful of Town Fakeclaims. Last game Town would have been eviscerated if I, the Town PR, hadn't been willing to roleswap with two different players.

So yeah, not going to apologize for my claims, though yes my execution of the Iatrophobe claim was disgusting due to unforseen business IRL.

I've been a vocal proponent/pusher that town players should never fake a PR claim just to save themselves and that it's anti-town because it can blow up and cause either a PR to CC the person or blow a miskill on the second highest wagon at some point.

Just look at my death last game as verification of my commitment to this ideology - I ensured I died so that you (The PR that broke the game open as you already know) would live because I knew my death would help the gamestate move forward.

The fact you did the cop scan claim shit and then this self defense move doesn't make me think you're town, it leads me to conclude you're more likely the last scum PR that hadn't been used yet and are just desperately trying to live.

However, my fake claim actually has absolved me:

1. I claimed Iatrophobe. Page 323, 3:02 time left.
2. Vecna is the first person to (vaguely) acknowledge my claim. Page 328, 1:44 time left.
3. Literally nobody reacts to my claim and the next mention is by me. Page 332, 25 minutes left.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Suppose sweetandcool is Mafia. Mafia have Daychat. So Mafia knows sweetandcool is going to claim Iatrophobe. With 3:02 left of the phase sweetandcool makes his claim.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim. Mafia doesn't acknowledge the claim because:

1. Mafia is COMPLETELY AFK (fucking unlikely)
2. Mafia doesn't want to look bad in retrospect when sweetandcool eventually flips).
3. Insert reason I can't think of.

Town doesn't acknowledge the claim because most town players suck ass at identifying soft-claims. I'm so bad at seeing non-hardclaims when I am town because I'm not looking for them, I'm looking for scum. It's a completely different mindset - I've discussed this in detail in a GT before and stand by it.

Is (2) reasonable?
No, not really.

We have seen plenty examples in this game and others where players of any alignment miss out on crucial game developments, mainly vig shots. A great example is Bunny just recently finding out that Fox claimed Archer. Or when the Balki v Dip duel occured several people had to be told what was happening. Generally when a PR claim occurs it is not uncommon to tell people about it.

My claim was ignored so it would have been natural for someone, be they Town or Mafia, to point it out at some point. With me being a top wagon, I find it hard to believe my scummates would not nudge the info for 2.5 hours. And instead I would have to come back on, despite being desperately busy IRL, and claim again.

Basically, you would have to believe the scum team was literally AFK for the last three hours of the day or the scum team was performing a major Fuck You towards sweetandcool, or it was planned in advance that sweetandcool would be absolved by the very case I am putting before you now.
-------------------------------------------------------

Look, I know I've been shit, but I'm not the shit you need to DK.

I don't think scum need to point anything out here because of the daychat. They can log it there and leave it out of the thread.

You've been preaching the value of daychat so much but seem to not employ it here. Why?

It was not a soft claim I literally claimed a role. I said "I am Iatrophobe".

You call that a soft claim?

I'm going to fake claim PR in many other games by the way, so buckle up.

Keep at it long enough and you might learn how to do it better. I will argue: it always sucks for exactly this reason. As a meta: I've grown accustomed to this play being done by scum to survive "one more day". If enough town players do shit like this consistently, it will start working for scum too.
I think that meta will not go well for town, so I'd encourage you to avoid doing it.

[Ezio]

I've been a vocal proponent/pusher that town players should never fake a PR claim just to save themselves and that it's anti-town because it can blow up and cause either a PR to CC the person or blow a miskill on the second highest wagon at some point.

Just look at my death last game as verification of my commitment to this ideology - I ensured I died so that you (The PR that broke the game open as you already know) would live because I knew my death would help the gamestate move forward.

The fact you did the cop scan claim shit and then this self defense move doesn't make me think you're town, it leads me to conclude you're more likely the last scum PR that hadn't been used yet and are just desperately trying to live.


Town doesn't acknowledge the claim because most town players suck ass at identifying soft-claims. I'm so bad at seeing non-hardclaims when I am town because I'm not looking for them, I'm looking for scum. It's a completely different mindset - I've discussed this in detail in a GT before and stand by it.

I don't think scum need to point anything out here because of the daychat. They can log it there and leave it out of the thread.

You've been preaching the value of daychat so much but seem to not employ it here. Why?

It was not a soft claim I literally claimed a role. I said "I am Iatrophobe".

You call that a soft claim?

I'm going to fake claim PR in many other games by the way, so buckle up.

I consider anything that isn't an explicit "hard claim" to be soft claims because of shit like what you did supposedly being fake and also shit brainbomb has done in the past.

Fake claiming PRs is anti-town far more often than it's pro-town.

In regards to future games, play them how you want to because it's not up to me to dictate what you do, but I'll have no sympathy D1'ing you from now on lol...

Ya but we're not gonna d1 anyone other than Monarch ever again.

[worcej]

It was not a soft claim I literally claimed a role. I said "I am Iatrophobe".

You call that a soft claim?

I'm going to fake claim PR in many other games by the way, so buckle up.

I consider anything that isn't an explicit "hard claim" to be soft claims because of shit like what you did supposedly being fake and also shit brainbomb has done in the past.

Fake claiming PRs is anti-town far more often than it's pro-town.

In regards to future games, play them how you want to because it's not up to me to dictate what you do, but I'll have no sympathy D1'ing you from now on lol...

Ya but we're not gonna d1 anyone other than Monarch ever again.

TBF that was an exact callout to myself because there was a time Sweet was D1'ed three games in a row and I felt bad and made him a "will not vote no matter what" on D1 because of it in a game.

[Col7by]

Fine.

I don’t want a sweet wagon collapse. But if it’s coming. ##vote themad. Good alternative.

If I’m voting a lurker player why not will who in the past is known for being helpful?

I really *hate* how Bunny is playing this phase. It feels just awful. So so so so so so so awful. "I don't want this wagon to collapse but rather than being on the wagon to reinforce it, I'll vote somewhere else that's very plausible".
Eden having misgivings about Sweet is giving me misgivings.

I’ve said my peace on bunny and am trying not to tunnel but if others see a cass in more than willing to go there. I’m trying to just step back and look at that broader picture

[worcej]

I've been a vocal proponent/pusher that town players should never fake a PR claim just to save themselves and that it's anti-town because it can blow up and cause either a PR to CC the person or blow a miskill on the second highest wagon at some point.

Just look at my death last game as verification of my commitment to this ideology - I ensured I died so that you (The PR that broke the game open as you already know) would live because I knew my death would help the gamestate move forward.

The fact you did the cop scan claim shit and then this self defense move doesn't make me think you're town, it leads me to conclude you're more likely the last scum PR that hadn't been used yet and are just desperately trying to live.


Town doesn't acknowledge the claim because most town players suck ass at identifying soft-claims. I'm so bad at seeing non-hardclaims when I am town because I'm not looking for them, I'm looking for scum. It's a completely different mindset - I've discussed this in detail in a GT before and stand by it.

I don't think scum need to point anything out here because of the daychat. They can log it there and leave it out of the thread.

You've been preaching the value of daychat so much but seem to not employ it here. Why?

It was not a soft claim I literally claimed a role. I said "I am Iatrophobe".

You call that a soft claim?

I'm going to fake claim PR in many other games by the way, so buckle up.

Keep at it long enough and you might learn how to do it better. I will argue: it always sucks for exactly this reason. As a meta: I've grown accustomed to this play being done by scum to survive "one more day". If enough town players do shit like this consistently, it will start working for scum too.
I think that meta will not go well for town, so I'd encourage you to avoid doing it.

Ezio says it well and I'll just reinforce that the timing of your claims scream to me that you're focused on ensuring you live. The logical thing I can point to is you're the scum PR that could cause the game to end with the vote mechanics so you're a great use of our last miskill.

Add in Colby's posts and I think this is even more true...

[BunnyGo]

whatever

##vote sweetandcool

this doesn’t feel right. but it’s clear nothing else is happening until this does.

Fine.

I don’t want a sweet wagon collapse. But if it’s coming. ##vote themad. Good alternative.

If I’m voting a lurker player why not will who in the past is known for being helpful?

Because Just is useful town and contributing and TheMad is scummy af. Look at what she posted today alone. Nothing useful, then tries to announce she trusts me so much she’d even vote for herself.

[Bonatogether]

has there been a pr announcement about freezing votes or anything or can i just place a vote now

[Bonatogether]

This is the D1 EOD voting. I think it is instructive in some way but it is hard to say exactly how.

Essentially, ALL OF THE VOTES WITH 30 MINS TO GO WERE TOWN - except sweet. I know you guys don't KNOW my alignment, but I do, so I see this.

Because of this, the votes by Worcej and Bunny with about 30 to go really grabbed my attention. I did not post about this when I first saw it because I was not sure how to decide what to think of this. Now that I feel confident worcej is town because Fox scumread him and was not NKd, I think this looks really bad for BunnyGo.

It also looks REALLY good for lfischl/PE to votepark a scum into top wagon contention with 40 minutes to go.

So again, we can deduce from this that PE is likely town. We can deduce also that Bunny could possibly be scum for moving to protect Flum.

We can also ask, is there actually ZERO scum movement in the last 30 minutes? This is just too much WIFOM at the moment so I can't give sweet scum points for this... if I rebuild the wagons and colour them I might have more ideas.

40 minutes is a long time - unsure how much credit can be given there

[Bonatogether]

I think it is EXCEPTIONALLY REASONABLE to make the below assumption - yellows are VERY LIKELY TOWN.

Pre duel updated VCA

DiplomacyandWarfare (6) DemonRHK*, worcej, Foxcastle, Jamiet99uk, Yoyoyozo, lfischl
Jamiet99uk (2) Fluminator, Ezio
ghug (3) FlaviusAetius, Dousing, JustAGuyNamedWill
lfischl (3) Col7by, Vecna, aarodactyl
damo666 (1) TheMadMonarch
FlaviusAetius (1) bonatogether
Dousing (2) Balki Bartokomous, ghug
Ezio (1) foodcoats
sweetandcool (1) BunnyGo
Balki (3) Squigs44, DiplomacyandWarfare, sweetandcool

zero scum on the dipandwar wagon is a big claim

[Ezio]

It was not a soft claim I literally claimed a role. I said "I am Iatrophobe".

You call that a soft claim?

I'm going to fake claim PR in many other games by the way, so buckle up.

Keep at it long enough and you might learn how to do it better. I will argue: it always sucks for exactly this reason. As a meta: I've grown accustomed to this play being done by scum to survive "one more day". If enough town players do shit like this consistently, it will start working for scum too.
I think that meta will not go well for town, so I'd encourage you to avoid doing it.

Ezio says it well and I'll just reinforce that the timing of your claims scream to me that you're focused on ensuring you live. The logical thing I can point to is you're the scum PR that could cause the game to end with the vote mechanics so you're a great use of our last miskill.

Add in Colby's posts and I think this is even more true...

The tilting part is it's not inherently anti-town to try to survive lol. Town doesn't want to be miskilled either.

Hearing what you've said about Sweet getting D1'd a lot makes me feel even more unsure about this. I didn't know how bad his meta was.

Has he ever made it to lategame as scum before?

[BunnyGo]

Fine.

I don’t want a sweet wagon collapse. But if it’s coming. ##vote themad. Good alternative.

If I’m voting a lurker player why not will who in the past is known for being helpful?

I really *hate* how Bunny is playing this phase. It feels just awful. So so so so so so so awful. "I don't want this wagon to collapse but rather than being on the wagon to reinforce it, I'll vote somewhere else that's very plausible".
Eden having misgivings about Sweet is giving me misgivings.

I agree. Not my best play.

But the scum team is Sweet-TheMad-??-?? And based on reactions today I’m guessing one of those is Col7by and the other is either Just or aaro outside chance of food.

[Ezio]

has there been a pr announcement about freezing votes or anything or can i just place a vote now

You can vote. It's just tinfoil from Sweet about this role being in the game, and scum potentially wanting to use it or whatever.
That said, it's more valuable to see/feel where people are at.