Elon Musk is an undemocratic disgrace

[learnedSloth]

Are you suggesting that there is no US citizen more suited to be President than Donald Trump?

If that were the case there really would be no hope for America and the rest of the world would be well advised to unite to scour them from the face of the globe.

I'm convicted that people are tainted by the original sin from conception, but God has not forsaken man in this fallen condition:

2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchæus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchæus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchæus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
(Luke 19)

But I do not believe that is so. I believe there are plenty of good people in the USA. They merely labour under a corrupt system which has been hijacked by the super rich, and they have been fed so many lies they do not know how to change things.

They need the love of truth:

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(The 2nd Epistle to Thessalonians, chapter 2)

[Jamiet99uk]

My god, Sloth said something I agree with.

Yes, Trump and Musk's aversion to truth, and the great proliferation of lies that spouts forth from the asshole on Trump's face (where a normal person would have a mouth) is one of the key problems here.

[Jamiet99uk]

Today JD Vance, probably the lowest-IQ Vice President in history, met with and apparently endorsed the neo-Nazi AfD party, ahead of major German elections.

America is actively promoting Fascism and White Nationalism across the globe.

Octavious, I don't care what you're about to say in support of Vance. Get out of here, or denounce him.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

The optics of JD Vance saying European liberals are a bigger threat than Russia and China are so unbelievably terrible.

The "firewall" against coalitions with the AfD that Vance is arguing against isn't some dictatorial imposition. It's the democratic decision of other parties not to join with a party that includes literal neo Nazis.

Vance's shameful comments come hot on the heels of Trump suggesting we reward Russia for its invasion of Ukraine by putting them back into the G8. Meanwhile, Trump is seeking to use Russian oil to offset potential losses from Canada due to his own tariff policy.

[Jamiet99uk]

I could not agree more.

[Octavious]

Octavious, I don't care what you're about to say in support of Vance. Get out of here, or denounce him.

Behold, I've been summoned like a budget Beetlejuice!

I'm truly touched to know that I'm in your thoughts, old chap... but it's rather hard for me to leave before I've even ventured into this discussion .

Still, we do our best to please, so here goes...

Hello everyone! Vance, eh? I know very little about him to be honest.

Right, contribution made . Goodbye!

[Jamiet99uk]

Alright, glad to hear it. To inform you, he's a dangerous right wing crackpot who openly endorses white nationalist groups.

[Jamiet99uk]

I hope anyone on this forum who works in the public sector in the US, and who voted for Trump, loses their job and is reduced to poverty.

You wanted it, you get it.

I hope your country collapses.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I really don't understand this perspective. Trump is evidently terrible, but you hope he's his worst-possible self just to spite his supporters?

A US federal public servant who voted for Trump is someone who knowingly voted against their personal career/financial interest out of some (deeply misguided) belief that it was the best way forward for their country. I'd be happy to call such a person ignorant and foolish, but their convictions may have been admirable. It serves little purpose to dance on such a person's grave.

In Canada we don't have the luxury of wishing ill on America, since US decline is so obviously ruinous to our economic interests. But I'd suggest folks in the UK really don't have this luxury either. Progressives have rightly pointed out the many, many flaws of US hegemony. But the US still underpins the survival of the liberal way of life around the globe. The US remains *the* source of economic dynamism, innovation, and defense in the free world. It's becoming abundantly clear that the UK, Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. cannot substitute for what the US provides on the global stage. And as US power declines, the world looks a lot more Chinese, Russian, and Iranian.

[CaptainFritz28]

I hope anyone on this forum who works in the public sector in the US, and who voted for Trump, loses their job and is reduced to poverty.

You wanted it, you get it.

I hope your country collapses.

Ah, yes, because things always go well when we hope for evil on those who oppose our views without regard to who they are.

Well if I had any doubt about you being a Christian before, Jamie (I didn't), I certainly don't now.

These are certainly bold words from someone in a nation with twice as many admirals as active warships in their navy.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I hope anyone on this forum who works in the public sector in the US, and who voted for Trump, loses their job and is reduced to poverty.

You wanted it, you get it.

I hope your country collapses.

Well if I had any doubt about you being a Christian before, Jamie (I didn't), I certainly don't now.

Jamie owns his anti-religiosity rather clearly. The mystery to be explained here is how US Christians came to overwhelming support the least Christ-like figure in US politics.

"Be not afraid" somehow became "be terrified of losing an election to the left".

Forgiving one's enemies has given way to drinking liberal tears.

Donal Trump Jr. explicitly said "We've turned the other cheek, and I understand, sort of, the biblical reference—but it's gotten us nothing".

[Jamiet99uk]

The MAGA cult and the US "Christian" right are full of hate.

They hate women.
They hate non-whites.
They hate refugees.
They hate LGBTQ people.

They love billionaire oligarchs, apartheid, and white supremacy, though, apparently.

[Jamiet99uk]

Oh I forgot a couple:

They hate dwarfs.
They hate amputees.

[CaptainFritz28]

Amputees? Now I'm curious.
Also, as a dwarf I feel offended at your sympathetic-offense for my kind.

[CaptainFritz28]

I hope anyone on this forum who works in the public sector in the US, and who voted for Trump, loses their job and is reduced to poverty.

You wanted it, you get it.

I hope your country collapses.

Well if I had any doubt about you being a Christian before, Jamie (I didn't), I certainly don't now.

Jamie owns his anti-religiosity rather clearly. The mystery to be explained here is how US Christians came to overwhelming support the least Christ-like figure in US politics.

"Be not afraid" somehow became "be terrified of losing an election to the left".

Forgiving one's enemies has given way to drinking liberal tears.

Donal Trump Jr. explicitly said "We've turned the other cheek, and I understand, sort of, the biblical reference—but it's gotten us nothing".

It coincides with the decline of the Church in America, I think, as a unified theologically sound body. It becomes less of a mystery when you examine the trends of Churches throughout history, which ones did well to support Christlike attitudes and teachings, and which ones failed in that endeavor and splintered into various heretical sects or cultural amalgamations of Christianity.

[Jamiet99uk]

Amputees? Now I'm curious.
Also, as a dwarf I feel offended at your sympathetic-offense for my kind.

I'm talking about the incident a few weeks ago where Donald Trump claimed that the air crash in Washington had happened because dwarfs and amputees were being hired as air traffic controllers.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Well if I had any doubt about you being a Christian before, Jamie (I didn't), I certainly don't now.

Jamie owns his anti-religiosity rather clearly. The mystery to be explained here is how US Christians came to overwhelming support the least Christ-like figure in US politics.

"Be not afraid" somehow became "be terrified of losing an election to the left".

Forgiving one's enemies has given way to drinking liberal tears.

Donal Trump Jr. explicitly said "We've turned the other cheek, and I understand, sort of, the biblical reference—but it's gotten us nothing".

It coincides with the decline of the Church in America, I think, as a unified theologically sound body. It becomes less of a mystery when you examine the trends of Churches throughout history, which ones did well to support Christlike attitudes and teachings, and which ones failed in that endeavor and splintered into various heretical sects or cultural amalgamations of Christianity.

This sounds right to me, but I wonder what you (as a Christian and a somewhat reluctant Trump voter) think should be done about it?

Why is US Protestantism failing to disciple its adherents? Why does MAGA have so much sway over Christians in particular? How can non-heretical Christians foster more Christ-like leaders and policies in both major parties?

[Jamiet99uk]

I encourage people to read the below declaration, which is part of a suit brought by USAID workers overseas (here, in Congo) against this Administration. The Declaration describes the life-threatening chaos that ensued when USAID was suddenly shuttered, without warning, by Elon Musk.

If you're incllined to dismiss all foreign aid as unncessary and are applauding the closure of USAID, realize that these are US lives Musk has endangered, and quite unlawfully for that matter, for no other reason than because he can.

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

AMERICAN FOREIGN SERVICE ASSOCIATION, et al.,
v
DONALD TRUMP, et al.,

Civil Action No. 1:25-CV-352
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=

DECLARATION OF MARCUS DOE

I, Marcus Doe, declare the following under penalties of perjury:

1. I am over 18 years of age and competent to give this declaration. This declaration is based on my personal knowledge, information, and belief.

2. I am a member of the American Foreign Service Association.

3. I am a USAID Foreign Service Officer assigned to USAID/Democratic Republic of the Congo in Kinshasa.

4. On January 20, 2025, the President of the United States issued an Executive Order imposing a 90-day “pause” on all U.S. foreign assistance. The scope of this Executive Order was unclear at first, given ambiguities and inconsistencies in the language used.

5. Beginning January 21, 2025, the first workday after the Executive Order was issued, USAID staff immediately set about determining how to interpret and implement the Executive Order. This effort continued zealously and in good faith by all employees of USAID DRC that I was able to observe in Kinshasa and in the United States. I observed no instances of insubordination or opposition to efforts to implement the Order.

6. Over the weekend of January 25–26, 2025, M23 rebels in eastern DRC took control of the city of Goma. Many Congolese citizens view western nations, including the United States, as having culpability for M23’s ongoing war in eastern DRC. The fall of Goma led to rumors of protest in the capital city of Kinshasa the following week. On Monday, January 27, however, protests in Kinshasa were relatively limited.

7. Over the course of the evening of Monday, January 27 in the DRC, dozens of USAID senior leaders were placed on administrative leave without notice or explanation and were cut off from USAID information systems. I learned of these actions first thing upon waking up and checking messages on January 28. I was deeply shaken by the sudden removal of nearly all USAID leadership without explanation. The Agency eventually issued a notice to all staff that these leaders were placed on administrative leave for allegedly circumventing Trump Administration Executive Orders. I have never read or heard of any specific allegations supporting this, nor have I ever seen anyone attempt to circumvent or subvert any of the January 20, 2025 Executive Orders.

8. Given the minimal protests in Kinshasa on January 27, many U.S. Embassy staff, including me, prepared to go to the office the morning of Tuesday, January 28. Likewise, my children prepared to go to school. The children boarded the school bus to go to school and I boarded the shuttle bound for the office. Each departed around the same time that morning, heading in different directions.

9. Shortly after leaving, the Embassy drivers received word that they should turn around and return employees back to their homes, as demonstrations began to form and the security situation near the U.S. Embassy began to deteriorate. Employees and children en route to their destinations were immediately returned home. All staff received messages through the Embassy’s “SAFE Alert” system regarding the change in operational posture, and providing instructions to shelter in place. Some U.S. Embassy staff, including some from USAID, had already made it to work early, and could not leave the Embassy.

10. I continued to telework throughout the morning, focused primarily on understanding and implementing the foreign assistance “pause,” while monitoring the Embassy-issued radios for information and instructions on security. At some point later that morning, I, along with others at USAID, learned via messages from another USAID employee that there were protesters outside his house setting fires and causing damage. He also described the situation over the radio.

11. Eventually, I heard this USAID employee describe over the radio that protesters had breached the gate of his home, and I heard him request an evacuation. I learned later that he and his family had been safely extracted from the situation by armed security working for the U.S. Embassy, but had lost all their belongings to looting. Videos of the looting of his home circulated on local social media. Shortly thereafter, around mid-day, I began to hear protesters chanting and shouting outside the walls of my home. My children were playing outside, so I called them in, and my spouse and I set about locking all doors and gates of our home. We were scared. Mercifully, the protesters never attempted to breach our gate.

12. Within a few hours, Embassy leadership convened a meeting to discuss the security situation and determine whether the Embassy should evacuate and go on ordered departure, often referred to as “OD.” Leadership determined in that meeting that we would evacuate and go on ordered departure, though a small number of staff would stay behind to maintain operations.

13. After learning of the impending ordered departure, I along with others from USAID/DRC communicated with colleagues in Washington about what was happening. My Washington colleagues were still reeling from the removal of multiple layers of leadership, and were unsure of who held what position.

14. I mentioned to these remaining Washington staff that the executive order pausing foreign assistance prevented USAID from obligating money to fund travel, and therefore USAID would be unable to fund the cost of the evacuation of its staff out of Kinshasa. Throughout the preceding week, USAID had been losing access to and control of its payment systems, as various standard payments for travel vouchers and cost of living allowances (COLA) were not successfully processed. It seemed that no one in Washington had yet considered the problem of funding the evacuation. It was unclear at the time who should have responsibility for resolving it, or what process existed for getting approval to spend money to save American lives. I began to worry that USAID staff would have to fund their own evacuations, and communicated this concern to multiple Washington staff. I began to feel an intense sense of panic that my government might fully abandon Americans working for USAID in Kinshasa.

15. Washington staff, concerned that any spending not directly approved by then-acting Administrator Jason Gray would be met with accusations of subverting the executive order and swift retribution, determined that they needed to process a “waiver request” with approval from Acting Administrator Gray. Thankfully, the career staff took up this effort despite perceived risks that they may suffer retaliation for attempting to spend money to save lives. The Acting Administrator did not approve the waiver request until January 29, well after the evacuation had already begun.

16. Despite the lack of an approved waiver, USAID staff and their families participated in the evacuation from Kinshasa, and boarded small boats alongside friends and colleagues from other foreign affairs agencies to cross the Congo River to Brazzaville. Each individual was able to take only what would fit in their lap. For most families, this was one carry-on-sized bag per person. Staff remained in a hotel in Brazzaville for about two days before flying from Brazzaville to Dulles International Airport, landing in Dulles the afternoon of January 31.

17. By the time we landed in Dulles, news reports were swirling that President Trump and Elon Musk were actively planning to shutter USAID. While State Department and USAID staff welcomed us home and offered us food and warm clothing, we were being aggressively maligned by Musk and Trump as a “criminal organization” composed of “marxists” who “hate America” that “needs to die.” Musk bragged about missing parties to “feed USAID into the woodchipper.” The President called USAID staff “radical lunatics;” both repeatedly and publicly asserted their intent to close the Agency.

18. After landing in Dulles, all evacuees were allowed two nights in the airport hotel in which to figure out what we would do next. This involved figuring out where we would live, how we would get around, where our children would go to school, and all other aspects of daily life in the United States. This is a stressful endeavor under the best of circumstances, but for USAID families, we did not know whether we would ever receive the housing allowances and other support payments that would normally be owed to evacuated families, as we did not know how long our Agency would exist.

19. To date we have still not received any of these payments, and USAID systems for processing and issuing such payments remain unavailable to USAID staff trained to use them. At the time of writing we have not yet even received the standard cost of living allowance (COLA) for Kinshasa that would normally have been paid to us weeks ago, before the evacuation.

20. As part of the evacuation instructions, staff were informed they must locate in the Washington, DC area so they could go to the office for in-person work—a supposed priority for the Administration. While family members could separate and go to alternative safe haven locations, employees were mandated to appear in the office. However, on February 3, the first workday after we arrived in the United States, the USAID building was closed to staff. As of the time of this writing, it has never reopened. Despite being forced to take on expensive DC-area leases and costs, USAID staff have never been allowed to go to the office. Again, despite significant efforts by USAID administrative staff, thus far no evacuation support payments have yet been made to anyone from USAID/DRC.

21. The evening of February 4, after most USAID/DRC staff had already taken on leases and made longer-term life decisions such as where children would attend school, all USAID staff received an email indicating they would be placed on administrative leave effective Friday, February 7. The unsigned email provided no reason for the decision nor any information on the longer-term implications. No one at USAID or the State Department could answer how this would affect eligibility for evacuation support payments. Even as of the morning of Friday, February 7, USAID evacuees did not know how they would live the next day.

22. For my part, I have taken on a month-to-month lease of a furnished 2-bedroom corporate apartment for my 4-person family. I will not be able to afford to continue this lease if I do not eventually receive evacuation support payments. If USAID is shuttered, I would lose those payments and my salary, and my family would have no home to live in and no income to procure one. We have already left nearly all our belongings in Kinshasa, save our four carry-on-sized suitcases. Even if those belongings were returned to us as part of the proposed mass repatriation of USAID Foreign Service Officers, we would have to pay to store them because we presently have no place to keep them.

23. The chaos of the Trump administration’s haphazard and extra-Constitutional shutdown of USAID has caused my family and me immense emotional distress by contributing to the already intense sense of panic and uncertainty of the riots in Kinshasa. My family has left behind our home and all our belongings as a result of our service to the United States of America overseas, and we have been harassed through a combination of malignant, violent rhetoric and threats of financial ruin from the officials effecting this shutdown.

24. Trump administration officials have cut off my Agency’s capacity to pay me what I am owed. I have undertaken significant costs and liabilities in good faith reliance on the government’s obligations to my family and me for my service. These obligations, including Cost of Living Allowance (COLA), Special Evacuation Allowance (SEA), Meals and Incidental Expenses (M&IE), and hotel costs have not yet been paid or reimbursed, and it is unclear at the time of writing whether they will ever be paid. Despite my need to make long-term financial and other commitments regarding my life and lifestyle, the Agency that employs me makes unexplained short-term threats to my employment with no indication of any plan for what I can expect in the coming days, let alone in the coming months.

25. USAID/DRC staff are patriots who are proud of our service and have risked our lives and our family’s lives to serve our country overseas in one of the most difficult environments on Earth. We deserve respect and dignity, or at least the payments promised to us for our sacrifices. To date, we have received none of those things.

I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct.
Executed on February 9, 2025.
/s/ Marcus Doe
Marcus Doe

==========

[CaptainFritz28]

Jamie owns his anti-religiosity rather clearly. The mystery to be explained here is how US Christians came to overwhelming support the least Christ-like figure in US politics.

"Be not afraid" somehow became "be terrified of losing an election to the left".

Forgiving one's enemies has given way to drinking liberal tears.

Donal Trump Jr. explicitly said "We've turned the other cheek, and I understand, sort of, the biblical reference—but it's gotten us nothing".

It coincides with the decline of the Church in America, I think, as a unified theologically sound body. It becomes less of a mystery when you examine the trends of Churches throughout history, which ones did well to support Christlike attitudes and teachings, and which ones failed in that endeavor and splintered into various heretical sects or cultural amalgamations of Christianity.

This sounds right to me, but I wonder what you (as a Christian and a somewhat reluctant Trump voter) think should be done about it?

Why is US Protestantism failing to disciple its adherents? Why does MAGA have so much sway over Christians in particular? How can non-heretical Christians foster more Christ-like leaders and policies in both major parties?

That is a question on which many books have been written and many lectures taught in recent years... I fear I cannot effectively sum it up in a relatively short statement.

But if I were to try, I would say that the Church should simply preach the Bible, not what advocates and politicians have to say, disciple Christians to understand Biblical theology and apply it to our lives (and then actually go and apply it, acting as the Church should [i.e. aiding the widowed and orphaned, the poor, the weak, the unspoken for, sacrificially and in love]), and encourage Christians to engage with culture and politics from a perspective not of viewing a politician or the political realm as a savior, but as something to be used for the doing of justice.

More than anything, I think that if Christians actually acted in view of Christ's example, and the Church actually encouraged that and acted as an organization to teach how to do so and be a place of organization for such, a lot would change.

For example, I've heard (and this was a long time ago so I don't know if it's true now) that if everyone who went to church regularly actually tithed 10% of their income, and the church leaders effectively managed these funds for service within their local communities, world hunger and lack of clothing would be almost immediately resolved.

Sacrificial love, selflessness, and humility were traits that defined Jesus's ministry. Christians should do the same. When you can't tell the difference, based on how someone lives, between a Christian and a non-Christian, the Church has failed to properly do its job.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I hope US Christians figure some of this out. History suggests that even an ostensibly Jesus-focused church is not a panacea for good politics or policymaking, but it's hard to think of a weirder outcome than Christians egging on a president whose entire persona is predicated on taking advantage of the weak and seeking retribution on his enemies.

I really don't understand at a practical level how Christians balance scriptural guidance against their personal preferences. What would Jesus' southern border policy look like? How might his teachings shape foreign aid? I'm sure an adept theologian could elaborate upon some surprising nuances, but I doubt if that wiggle room could get you to Deporter-in-Chief and haphazardly shutting down USAID.

At what point did Trump seem like the more Christ-like candidate to you? The Biden years were indeed bad for a lot of reasons. Harris was an uninspiring candidate. But if the substance of Christ teachings are things like help the poor, don't promote retribution, etc., it seem inescapable that Trump is further from this ideal than basically anyone on earth.