MAFIA 52: You Can't Take The Sky From Me [HIDDEN]

[peterlund]

People who want to fill the thread with long-winded mechanics-based discussions to no immediate purpose are often scum, or Bozo.

Do you think my wanting people to consider a massclaim is scum motivated then?

Mildly, yes. Encouraging people to speculate about something that may or may not happen and which you may or may not support, in general terms, is a great way to look like you're contributing without actually contributing.

Good post! Town points to Jamie, scum points to Xorxes...

[rdrivera2005]

Yet you didn't vote?

Why people expect I vote emc? Jamiet already voted as a pressure on him to vote early (and avoid being modkilled at least). It was page 1 and I don't have any idea about emc alignment yet, why turn him a real wagon?

##vote Worcej for now.

Why vote for me over xorxes who also questioned you for the exact same thing? Or did you not read that far before doing this?

I thought you saw Xorxes comment and tried to buddy him pushing me for a joke post on page 1.
But I don't scumread you now, so ##unvote

[rdrivera2005]

I think Bunny and Chaqa are onto something here. When should we post those sentences?

This breaks the game, and I'm against it, dont do it

Breaks the game how? Maybe we found our reaver.

Reaver would probably be one of the biggest pusher for a massclaim....

[rdrivera2005]

As for mass claim:

I believe the reaver team has the most to gain from an early mass claim unless they mess up and die D1/N1, they would know the ideal target to turn to reavers.

Town can quickly pin all 5 scum (the best chance they have is a 50/50) and are set to benefit. Downside is reaver 2 and 3.

Scumteam one can NK whoever causes the biggest threat. However they're all pinned so I don't see a way out for them.

The bounty hunter would be doomed without NKs and having lost the power to force lynches on their conf!Town targets.

That what I think at least. I'm on holiday so will be quite active for 3 or 4 real life days

I really like this new Temasek in this game.

[rdrivera2005]

Well, at this point I am not a big fan of the massclaim. I don't like massclaims in general (at least a D1 massclaim) as it just breaks the game, and in this case I am not even sure it advances town wincon.

[xorxes]

We have a vigilante as well, and a cop. We would be able to give directions (cop scan X, vote Y, if Y flips town, vote Z, etc.)

I could put some more thorough thought into it if I thought it was actually a viable plan, but we would not likely get full commit from everyone.

In case we go with it, anyone who doesn't claim is by default claimimg VT. If they are town PR and they get vigshot/lynched then they are not playing to win.

My biggest concern with the massclaim is the Reaver. He would know exactly which roles to choose to improve his chances. I can see some choices that will make really hard for town to find the recruited ones as we will be busy for a long time targeting VT claimants.

Would you say pushing the Reaver to choose based on roles rather than based on personalities is a bad idea?

[xorxes]

Then I am confused how this game is mass-claim proof.

My best guess is the Reavers are meant to counteract it, but... I'm a bit uncertain if it's truly going to be that hard to figure them out.

Yeah, that's where I am at. I interpreted that the BH has role targets, which they apparently do not.

Mass-claiming makes the most sense. M1, BH, and RP are going to be in a pool of 8 players most likely and narrows down this game a lot for us.

A pool of 10 players. Unless some of them choose to counter someone.

[xorxes]

My best guess is the Reavers are meant to counteract it, but... I'm a bit uncertain if it's truly going to be that hard to figure them out.

Yeah, that's where I am at. I interpreted that the BH has role targets, which they apparently do not.

Mass-claiming makes the most sense. M1, BH, and RP are going to be in a pool of 8 players most likely and narrows down this game a lot for us.

I'm in agreement from a logical perspective. I just don't want it to feel like we "ruined" Kit's setup...

Why do people keep perpetuating this silly notion that massclaims "ruin" a game? If the massclaim solves a game completely, then the game was broken to begin with, it started broken, it can't be ruined. Otherwise, a massclaim is just one more tool to help us solve the game, just like copscans, docsaves, GM reveals, etc.

We're not guaranteed to win with a massclaim, so the game is not broken. The only question here is whether a massclaim is beneficial to town or not at this stage, and my impression is that it is, so I will start it when I finish catching up, unless I read something in the meanwhile that makes me change my mind.

[xorxes]

hmm I actually don't have much against mass claim, to be fair

Considering how shit PRs as a whole played last game (not in the least due to me, hah) mass claim will not do as much harm as it may be thought to

Exactly. If we don't masscalim, the Vig is likely to shoot the cop or the doc or someone useful, given out track record. If we narrow the hitlist to 10 people they are way more likely to hit scum and get a second shot, and if not, at least they will only kill a VT and reduce the scumpool. Also the Cop won't waste their first (and usually only) scan, they will either get scum or a high likelyhood of a clear.

It benefits the Reaver a bit? Yes, it does. So we deal with that.

[BunnyGo]

My first guesses:

1) no posting with a certain letter (like u) so post: the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog

2) Only using one tense in posts: I had the idea, I have an idea, I will have an idea.

3) No direct quotes. (see above)

4) No questions: Don't you think that would be interesting?

5) Must have a typo in every post? Misspelling or something? This can be resolved with short posts of the quick brown fox...

I think Bunny and Chaqa are onto something here. When should we post those sentences?

This breaks the game, and I'm against it, dont do it

Disagree strongly. Unlike mass claim, we don’t actually know what the issue is (do you?). This is closer to nobody saying “never gonna give you up”.

We’re looking for the reaver. And I’m now voting you until you 1) quote this post with a 4 sentence response including a contraction like “Bunny is a jerk. I can’t believe I’m doing this”. And a separate poster with only 1 precisely written sentence: the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.

[BunnyGo]

##VOTE EMC goddamit. VOTE MAN so I can pressure other people.

[BunnyGo]

Ok, first impressions:

Most of these 13 pages is worthless. A bunch of "Shia Suo"

The massclaim idea is a bunch of "Joo Fuen Chse". Those gorram reavers and that "Go Neong Yung Duh" bounty hunter will take full advantage and we will not.

Worcej is out of character. I don't get it, and I don't like it.

I dunno about the rest. There's really not much to go on yet. ##Call GM "Ba Wong" If the reaver doesn't convert someone on N1 (say they are killed by scum, or saved by other means) do they get to keep converting until there are 3 reavers?

"Bao Jone", I'll try to check in before EOD.

For those that don't speak Chinese, Bunny meant this in the quotes.

[Chinese is widely spoken here in Singapore so ik what he means, although he didn't use the standard spelling. ]

Shia Suo = 瞎说 = bluff/nonsense

Joo Fuen Chse (the only one I'm not sure about) = 猪粪池 = a pool of pig manure

Go Neong Yung Duh = 狗娘养的 = son of a b**ch

Ba Wong = 霸王 = mighty emperor

Bao Jone = 保重 = take care/farewell

There you go. Hope this helps. Sorry pal.

ALL HAIL TEMASEK HAHAHA XP

I don’t speak Chinese. I just looked up some phrases from firefly (where they do to swear on tv)

[xorxes]

xu ro'oi sampu numtca nakni

[peterlund]

My guesses on the Reavers posting restrictions are that the purpose of the restrictions are to not let the previous reaver(s) know what original role and alignment the recruits had before they were converted to reavers.
They will probably have a reaver QT. Anyhow the Reavers have a NK every night until the game ends. (2 first will be converted)

[xorxes]

As for mass claim:

I believe the reaver team has the most to gain from an early mass claim unless they mess up and die D1/N1, they would know the ideal target to turn to reavers.

Town can quickly pin all 5 scum (the best chance they have is a 50/50) and are set to benefit. Downside is reaver 2 and 3.

Scumteam one can NK whoever causes the biggest threat. However they're all pinned so I don't see a way out for them.

The bounty hunter would be doomed without NKs and having lost the power to force lynches on their conf!Town targets.

That what I think at least. I'm on holiday so will be quite active for 3 or 4 real life days

Good summary. The Reaver benefits somewhat, by having a choice of roles to recruit, but is recruiting by role rather than by personality really in their best interest anyway? And in any case, with or without the claims their recruits would still be hard to find, so it's not a huge advantage to them as far as I can tell.

The advantage to town, making sure all town PRs can make useful decisions instead of shooting in the dark, far outweighs the disadvantages.

[xorxes]

With 10 PRs, it'll whittle down our lynch pool to basically a 50/50, which is better that we could normally hope for. This is true. However, it also ensures that the two mafia factions don't fight each other, pretty much guaranteeing that we'll lose 2 PRs the first two nights. Our roleblocker will not know who to target. Theirs will.

Our roleblocker gets a reduced pool to target, and they won't risk roleblocking the doc or the watcher or someone they shouldn't be roleblocking. They could get lucky and roleblock the mafia killer or the Reaver or their roleblocker. The chances of our roleblocker doing something useful improve dramatically with a massclaim. So yes, it gives their roleblocker info, but ours as well. And our watcher can watch whoever is a good candidate for them to roleblock.

They can ensure their hits go through. And this all supposes that VTs won't claim a PR to draw a NK (which has happened before in games I was in...not sure if that's in vogue now). Which would just throw everything into chaos.

Town should not fakeclaim in a massclaim situation.

If we don't mass claim, yes our lynch pool is bigger, and yes the chance of success goes from 50% to 25%. However, the scum chance of a good NK goes down from 100% to 50%. More importantly, the probability of *scum hitting other scum* is gonna be 20%. That's the ideal scenario here, folks. If they're left in the dark, they have the chance of killing each other.

They still need to kill each other at some point in order to win. Especially the Bounty Hunter, which town does not need to kill.

[xorxes]

I was going to suggest the captain claim, but I’m pretty sure this would just lead to him being Reaver stolen. My understanding of the Protective roles is that they won’t stop the Reaving (or else why does the Doctor only have a 50% chance to stop it...?)

The Reaver won't recruit the captain because then they lose their extra votes and they are immediately exposed.

[xorxes]

Also, and this may just be 3am ramblings from me...but how worried should we be about the bounty hunter? Conceivably they could be able to win as soon as the second day. Its just a complete random crapshoot that I don't see how we have any control over.

Exactly. They could win randomly and there's nothing we could do about that.

But...my second related thought is - isn't it kinda scummy for town to worry about the bounty hunter? Because look at the win conditions. Town doesn't need to kill the 3rd party. We just need to lynch 4-6 scum. That's 8-12 dead people. Scum need to kill *many* more to win, so the third party is more of a threat to them than it is to us, no?

Yes, it's not something we should worry too much about. But if we hit them while hunting for scum, it's not a bad thing either.

[xorxes]

So, does anyone have a good argument why we should not massclaim?

"I opposse massclaims on principle" is not a good argument.

There are obviously some drawbacks, but with so few VTs in play a massclaim should always be a consideration.

Both the prime Reaver convert power and Mafia 1 NK would be used against the the powerful town roles.

And as I said already in the signup thread "I will not be part of it" since it is against the spirit of the game.

But noted now that Xorxs and Chaqa are pushing "mass-claim D1" hard. For what purpose??

The purpose should be clear: I want town to win, and I think a massclaim increases our chances.

Massclaims being against the spirit of the game is just silly. Artificially restricting your tools to win is against the spirit of the game.

If a massclaim is against the spirit of the game, why is a single claim not against the spirit of the game? Or why is using a copscan not agaist the spirit of the game? Or why is a GM reveal not against the spirit of the game?

Cheating is against the spirit of the game. A massclaim is a perfectly valid strategy and well within the spirit of the game.

[xorxes]

This breaks the game, and I'm against it, dont do it

Breaks the game how? Maybe we found our reaver.

Reaver would probably be one of the biggest pusher for a massclaim....

The Reaver may secretely be hoping that a massclaim does take place, but do you truly believe they would be pushing for it hard?