M60 - Duck Season? (Director's Cut) - Game Thread

[BunnyGo]

Do you think he wasn't bussed at all?

I think the most likely bussers are those who are familiar with his scum game and know it's a liability *more* than the item thief is a benefit. I don't know who those people are. I think kgray is one, she'd probably know how to find others.

cynic

Why else bus summit?

[Durga]

Do you think he wasn't bussed at all?

You can't ignore my question by asking me a question.

Also, I'm not going to be voting any of the early wagoners D2, I'm feeling pretty good about kgray, HR, flash, Bozo being town or at least not mafia

Was my question not an answer to your question?

No, stop being annoying. You think I'm the likely busser? Seriously? You know how I feel about bussing, for one. And if you think I wouldn't have absolutely milked that shit you are so wrong.

[Hellenic Riot]

I think flash is probably town as well.

He anchored on summit because of a joke vote. That would have been really easy to move since nobody would really question a change since the intially vote had little basis.

Agreed - Flash also came back on numerous occasions and commented on the summit wagon and questioned why summit hadn't voted yet - So he had plenty opportunity to change onto a competing wagon.

I disagree, flash didn’t “push” summit until he was already a leading wagon and it was too late to jump off without looking bad, especially given there wasn’t any material from summit to use to back down. I think it reeks of a bus.

Flash's vote was not stuck there though, it would be very easy given his initial vote was a joke to jump off and onto one of the many wagons that rose and fell as competitors to Summit (Damo, Chaqa, Donny, Maniac, Nanook) by jumping on something one of them said - There was nothing that tied Flash into voting summit and therefore required summit to do something to justify flash's switch.

[Durga]

I see no scum motivation for flash doing what he did

[ghug]

You can't ignore my question by asking me a question.

Also, I'm not going to be voting any of the early wagoners D2, I'm feeling pretty good about kgray, HR, flash, Bozo being town or at least not mafia

Was my question not an answer to your question?

No, stop being annoying. You think I'm the likely busser? Seriously? You know how I feel about bussing, for one. And if you think I wouldn't have absolutely milked that shit you are so wrong.

Your first question applies to literally any busser, hence my response. I think someone bussed, and I think it's entirely possible that you as a bussing hater got worried about not being on the runway wagon and hopped on, only to be stuck there when it looked less runaway and not want to push it hard.

I'm not planning to vote any of the early voters tomorrow either, but I'm not going you a free pass.

[Vecna]

In fact, looking at Vecna's voting pattern - He pushed Damo as a counter-wagon to Summit getting pressure, stayed on Damo right up until Summit retook the lead and it therefore looked like the Damo wagon was going to fizzle out, and then unvoted, disappeared for ages, and came back to put a vote on Summit when the elimination was already decided.

And whats to say that I wasnt pushing scum either? I made it no secret I wanted to give summit time to see if he would actually contribute. Either he was town that just hadnt had the time, or it was going to be a run-away wagon where we learn nothing.

If I was scum with him, after the last game he was scum itd have been pretty apparent that he would not be able to do so. And I definately would not have put myself in that position to receive any criticism.

[Hellenic Riot]

On a side-note, I am also down to scream antisemite at anyone who dares vote me

[Maniac]

Hi Maniac

What special insights has being on the block against scum given you?

I have some thoughts, but right now I’m getting to know my new buddies in the Maria thread so we’ll speak later

[Hellenic Riot]

In fact, looking at Vecna's voting pattern - He pushed Damo as a counter-wagon to Summit getting pressure, stayed on Damo right up until Summit retook the lead and it therefore looked like the Damo wagon was going to fizzle out, and then unvoted, disappeared for ages, and came back to put a vote on Summit when the elimination was already decided.

And whats to say that I wasnt pushing scum either? I made it no secret I wanted to give summit time to see if he would actually contribute. Either he was town that just hadnt had the time, or it was going to be a run-away wagon where we learn nothing.

If I was scum with him, after the last game he was scum itd have been pretty apparent that he would not be able to do so. And I definately would not have put myself in that position to receive any criticism.

You didn't really do a very good job pushing anyone though, did you? Your vote on Damo was calling his bluff about the wagon dying away, you made no case whatsoever on him, and then unvoted two posts later without having even mentioned Damo in between. So even if Damo is scum, you'd still gain all the credibility of a chocolate fireguard out of that flip too.

[damo666]

I think the most likely bussers are those who are familiar with his scum game and know it's a liability *more* than the item thief is a benefit. I don't know who those people are. I think kgray is one, she'd probably know how to find others.

cynic

Why else bus summit?

I don't think there were any early bussers. One or two among the late voters when it was a fait accompli.

[Vecna]

More of notes - people who either didn't or barely did engage with summit:

My TL;DR summary is in the ( )'s for each one

1. worcej (I didn't scum read him - his lack of doing anything wasn't flagging my attention like the obviously scummy actions)
2. Bunny (only comments really were he OMGUS'ed and then moved to him once the CC was made)
3. Vecna (was skeptical he was scum at all and wasn't too interested in the vote and ultimately sheeps onto it because it was inevitable)
4. Nanook (no actual game interaction, like myself)
5. Donny (same situation as Nanook - no real interaction and just voted him after the CC)
6. Maniac (No game comments and scum leans him in final reads list)
7. Rdr (a couple 'I would rather X than X' posts and no real read on summit)
8. Seth (pointed the kgray and Flum had good reasoning, then in last 11 minutes seems to believe he is scum. Very little interaction with the game overall honestly)

People who came on strong on or against summit - this is intended as NAI, so don't assume a read from it:

1. Flum (called summit scum based on a weak response regarding his online status. I didn't take this as sarcasm when I read it. Happened with ~31 hours left of phase)
2. kgray (right around Flum's read made her read based on recent scum game)
3. TrPrado (very against the case for summit with 21 hours left in the phase and pokes at the scum reads of him until finally voting him after the CC)
4. Flash (have to put here - his vote was a joke but it stuck)

You should probably go reread my iso

I guess I should be flattered that all the dodgy people are coming out of the woodworks and trying to paint my engagement in a totally different way than it actually happened.

Dodgy people like HR? Your iso doesn’t look good why are you so insistent it does?

He posted after I made that post.

Also, there is nothing wrong with my iso. Ive been agreeing with everyone all throughout d1 that the little summit had been posting was in his scum meta, but it wasnt definitive yet, and that we would be able to get a better read if he were just left to his own devices, without facing a crippling level of pressure (also just in case he was a PR - I even made a post stating that I felt that some of the scumread people was just a scared PR).

I asked a bunch of people to unvote at crucial moments, allowing for the day to develop normally, without the wagon running away in an early stage.

Also, I was actively stating that we should not lynch the counter-wagon maniac, since he is such a delight. And I was actively pointing out the people that were trying to move us away from the summit wagon (hint: damo when he tried to fan the flames on chaqa, trying to draw a picture of chaqa and the other wagon that I forget being scum together).

It was also plenty obvious to me that Chaqa was either a PR or scum very early. Theres a reason why I kept telling him at several points his play was too obvious and that he was not playing to his normal town meta, and would get a wagon on him.

The vote timing matters very little. Ive had a great habit recently of catching up and pointing the votes for a last 30 minute wagon in the right direction. The exact same thing happened here. I was catching up, but all seemed fine. When Durga asked me why I wasnt voting, I placed the only right vote.

[Vecna]

@ghug you actually think I would place a vote on the item thief as scum when I could have just as easily stayed on a scummy looking Chaqa or pushed something else? Why does it feel like you're low key undermining me all game

Do you think he wasn't bussed at all?

I think the most likely bussers are those who are familiar with his scum game and know it's a liability *more* than the item thief is a benefit. I don't know who those people are. I think kgray is one, she'd probably know how to find others.

And you think im not one of those people?

I was the one that started the summit wagon in that game where we learned the meta, and if people had sheeped me there that game wouldve went a whole lot different (since Kgray was also making shady movements to protect Summit there).

[Vecna]

In fact, looking at Vecna's voting pattern - He pushed Damo as a counter-wagon to Summit getting pressure, stayed on Damo right up until Summit retook the lead and it therefore looked like the Damo wagon was going to fizzle out, and then unvoted, disappeared for ages, and came back to put a vote on Summit when the elimination was already decided.

And whats to say that I wasnt pushing scum either? I made it no secret I wanted to give summit time to see if he would actually contribute. Either he was town that just hadnt had the time, or it was going to be a run-away wagon where we learn nothing.

If I was scum with him, after the last game he was scum itd have been pretty apparent that he would not be able to do so. And I definately would not have put myself in that position to receive any criticism.

You didn't really do a very good job pushing anyone though, did you? Your vote on Damo was calling his bluff about the wagon dying away, you made no case whatsoever on him, and then unvoted two posts later without having even mentioned Damo in between. So even if Damo is scum, you'd still gain all the credibility of a chocolate fireguard out of that flip too.

I think I made my suspicions very clear on that slot in the posts that followed. Not that I was completely certain at that point, but you saying I did nothing to point out all the scummy shit damo did during my play sessions is nonsense.

[kgray]

Why wouldn’t summit claim if he knew Maniac was scum? He got a CC out of it.

I don’t think summit claimed to draw attention away from maniac - I think he did it just to get a CC

I agree with this on the cc point.

I do too, if he was doing it for any other reason he probably would have claimed much earlier. I don't think he even wanted to survive D1.

[rdrivera2005]

I don’t think summit claimed to draw attention away from maniac - I think he did it just to get a CC

I agree with this on the cc point.

I do too, if he was doing it for any other reason he probably would have claimed much earlier. I don't think he even wanted to survive D1.

I don't. I think he was tryng to get a CC AND survive. And if Chaqa didn't CC I think he could have escaped as you don't kill an uncced PR.
If he claimed earlier the chance of a CC is higher.

[kgray]

Also, people seem to be really overlooking Bunny's weird reactions when the Summit wagon first appeared.

What’s with the summit wagon? Should we hammer it?

(Page 14)

##vote Tom
gah

I don’t understand the summit wagon at all. ##vote Donny ##end

(Page 18)

Something I also noticed is Tom called out Chaqa pretty aggressively for not understanding the case against Summit, but didn't comment on Bunny's questioning of the wagon. I townread Tom but if Bunny flips scum then this could point to scum!Tom, and vice versa. It seems like Chaqa questioning the summit wagon was a big part of Tom's scumread of Chaqa:

I don't really follow the summit case, or the end votes. Is this just Day 1 memes still?

What don’t you understand about it. It’s like the simplest case of all time? You can agree or disagree with it, but I find it hard to believe if you genuinely looked you would be confused by it...

I still don’t like Chaqa’s post.

He could have said the case on summit was garbage (which is what he is now claiming). Instead he said he wasn’t following the case. To me that just seems like someone actually wanting to dissuade people from voting summit and instead trying to get towncred if summit is town and flips.

Then again, Chaqa is pretty lazy - so it could be NAI. I guess just a connection I want to keep in mind if either of these two flip.

Kgray seems really aggressive this game. More so than I remember. Not sure what to think of that, but it comes across on the surface as pretty towny.

Worcejs post right after GMs clarified PMs was weird: “I love how people don’t pay attention to things when they happen”. What was that supposed to mean? Was he insinuating that he got the VT role PM and noticed the messages. Softing VT is weird and seems forced, but I may just not be understanding what he is trying to say.

[kgray]

I agree with this on the cc point.

I do too, if he was doing it for any other reason he probably would have claimed much earlier. I don't think he even wanted to survive D1.

I don't. I think he was tryng to get a CC AND survive. And if Chaqa didn't CC I think he could have escaped as you don't kill an uncced PR.
If he claimed earlier the chance of a CC is higher.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree, then. I know it comes off like I'm summit's shrink or something, but I think he is physically uncomfortable as scum and even more so when he was getting pressure. I think he was perfectly happy going down and trying to avoid implicating any of his teammates.

Regardless, I don't think the claim had anything to do with Maniac being the counterwagon.

[BunnyGo]

On a side-note, I am also down to scream antisemite at anyone who dares vote me

No. It’s fine. Just let me see the knives coming. Not while my back is turned.

[kgray]

The thing I most suspect about Bunny is that when the Maniac wagon started going, I had naked voted and someone else followed. In both cases Bunny wanted to know why we were voting Maniac. Certainly reasonable considering I have no explanation - but in hindsight it almost comes across as desperately wanting a reason to latch on to and justify a move to Maiac.

Did you not notice Bunny questioning the summit wagon?

[BunnyGo]

Do you think he wasn't bussed at all?

I think the most likely bussers are those who are familiar with his scum game and know it's a liability *more* than the item thief is a benefit. I don't know who those people are. I think kgray is one, she'd probably know how to find others.

And you think im not one of those people?

I was the one that started the summit wagon in that game where we learned the meta, and if people had sheeped me there that game wouldve went a whole lot different (since Kgray was also making shady movements to protect Summit there).

I don’t know who knows that meta. I don’t recall that game.