M54: Not a Carrot Conspiracy

[xorxes]

From the Intravaneous Maf QT, in the stomach

*scraps of meat piled high inside bo-sox stomach cavity. mountains of old pizza floating among a giant lake of stomach acid and bile.

Flumigerminator: *evil voice* Yes my minions. let us toast. to this beautiful manly vessel we can hide inside
BO! all hail bo!

damoH1N5: *smoking* This bo guy is blocked up. poor fuck hasnt taken a shit in years.

BunnyGoSwineFlu: Can you get the mean people to stop being mean. calling me a nazi. Im not some beatrix potter bitch. Im a real boy with real feelings

Flumigerm: Ok. Yes. How about you do the kill. Pick anyone


BungleGoJojoSwineFlu: I wanna kill karen, and zoltan, and princess lenniweather
and all those horrible townies jamie mentioned.

DamoH1N: Those people arent in the game. pull yourself together.

*a giant antacid tablet lands in the middle of the lake*

Damo: BO IS DOSING AGAIN
HE MEANT ANTACID NOT ACID.

*the entire maf team is destroyed and later shit out by bo as he plays bass on the toilet*

Who can spot the townslip? Bonus points if you can tell whether it's real or fake.

Mafia does not choose who does the kill, of course. Though, I don’t think Brain saying that is AI.

Why did he say it, in your opinion?

[BunnyGo]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

Towns goal isn’t to not die. It’s to find scum. Especially on a crapshoot day, if I strongly townread the other wagon and I’m VT, I’ll let the wagon movement give us intel. Even if I die, the rest of town gets intel by my flip and the wagons. Worcej has said the same already but less spelled out.

[BunnyGo]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

If worcej is mafia, I expect he would have voted for Tem to save himself if it came to that. However, it did not come to that. I was following the votes pretty carefully at End of Day. I don’t think there was ever a time when it looked like worcej was most likely to be lynched.

And from experience, he’s good enough to fake being a VT there.

[xorxes]

worcej is very hard to lynch when hes town. hes a strong fighter for his perspective. the wagon on worcej felt scummier than worcej. So its worth looking into.

I helped mislynch worcej recently when he was town, because the way he explained his actions made no sense to me. The "reaction test" thing, when he claimed he was doing a reaction test to explain some scummy looking action of his. It was very similar to what happened with Temasek, it was hard to believe that his actions were pre planned. It's hard to believe that Temasek would want to draw a wagon onto himself on purpose as PR too.

[worcej]

@worcej,

I don’t really care for the hysterics. I can read. I am taking the time to read your posts and question you about them so that we can understand each other. I have read your explanation for your town read on Tem. I am trying to tell you why it doesn’t make sense to me so that you can respond and we can reach some understanding. Repeating the same thing back to me in bold does not advance this process. It is dismissive and makes me feel like you don’t want to be prodded and you don’t want to have a discussion with me.

I get that you think Tem is bad and so being bad does not necessarily make him Scum. I understand that concept.

My response is: sure, but wouldn’t he also be bad as scum?

I see how your reasoning might lead you to think Tem is Null. I do not see why you would read him as town for behaving the way he did. I am engaging with you because I want to understand. Take the time to explain. You have a captive audience.

I think the biggest issue is I don't want to make an effort to understand your perspective because, from my own perspective, you are going (and have been) to poke holes into any explanation I give you. I get the sense that no reason I provide is good enough for you. Effectively, you are listening to respond and not to understand to begin with.

Case and point on listening to respond vs listening to understand: your response that you outlined above. It is a 'yeah, but...', which is the exact opposite of trying to understand someone. You're trying to invalidate my stance by offering counter-arguments/logic. I don't know about you, but I don't debate people to understand them.

However, you did bring something important up: For me, there is no 'null' in this game - there is no Vanilla Null role. I think people get stuck on the concept of a 'null' read. The players in this game are either scum or town, nothing in-between.

In fact, with a gun to my forehead now, I would say you are scum Balki because you come off as hunting when you are actually just poking holes in other player's explanations.

[worcej]

worcej is very hard to lynch when hes town. hes a strong fighter for his perspective. the wagon on worcej felt scummier than worcej. So its worth looking into.

I helped mislynch worcej recently when he was town, because the way he explained his actions made no sense to me. The "reaction test" thing, when he claimed he was doing a reaction test to explain some scummy looking action of his. It was very similar to what happened with Temasek, it was hard to believe that his actions were pre planned. It's hard to believe that Temasek would want to draw a wagon onto himself on purpose as PR too.

TBF, I don't think Tem knows any better.

[worcej]

worcej is very hard to lynch when hes town. hes a strong fighter for his perspective. the wagon on worcej felt scummier than worcej. So its worth looking into.

I helped mislynch worcej recently when he was town, because the way he explained his actions made no sense to me. The "reaction test" thing, when he claimed he was doing a reaction test to explain some scummy looking action of his. It was very similar to what happened with Temasek, it was hard to believe that his actions were pre planned. It's hard to believe that Temasek would want to draw a wagon onto himself on purpose as PR too.

And I also didn't care if my actions brought about my demise at the time because I was VT and wanted to create more information with my actions at the time.

[Balki Bartokomous]

Why did he say it, in your opinion?

You know, I shouldn’t be so dismissive. What I meant was “I could see brain posting this mistake as either alignment,” but that doesn’t mean it is not alignment indicative. It might be that we can tease out which world is more likely: Scum!brain or Town!brain posting this mistake.

If it’s Town!brain, then this is likely an honest mistake based on not reading the roles carefully. I doubt it is some Rx test exercise, though brain should tell us if it was. So, how likely is it that Town!brain hasn’t looked too carefully at the mafia roles or at least forgot one of the key mechanics when making this post? I think it’s reasonably likely. Perhaps others have more insight on how carefully brainbomb studies the game mechanics and how likely it would be for town!brain to overlook this one or to have it slip his mind when concocting a story like this.

If it’s Scum!brain, then he is probably much more aware of this mechanic. He would have likely already talked to his partners during the first couple of hours of the night, and it just seems less likely that he would not be aware of this rule. So if it’s Scum!brain, he threw this “slip” in purposefully in order for someone to notice it and give him credit.

So, how likely is it that Scum!brain threw in this “slip” to try to gain credit. I actually think it’s quite likely. It’s the kind of “slip” that was prominent enough in his post that brainbomb could have expected it to be noticed. And his post required enough effort and time that it seems like a reasonable candidate as a ploy to try to put forth a “town slip.”

So, if we agree that we can narrow the Town!brain explanation to “missed the rule, and happened to post about his misunderstanding” and we can narrow the Scum!brain explanation to “purposeful attempt to solicit a ‘derp clear’” then we can have a pretty meaningful discussion about which scenario is more likely.

[xorxes]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

Towns goal isn’t to not die. It’s to find scum. Especially on a crapshoot day, if I strongly townread the other wagon and I’m VT, I’ll let the wagon movement give us intel. Even if I die, the rest of town gets intel by my flip and the wagons. Worcej has said the same already but less spelled out.

There wasn't much reason to strongly townread Tem I don't think. And it's not clear why anyone would think that their own flip would give more intelligence than someone else's flip. If he strongly suspected that Tem was a PR it may make sense to self sacrifice, but why would he suspect that? It's also not clear that he was in actual danger though, so I don't think his not voting for Tem tells us much. It's his saying that he would not have voted for Tem even if he was in actual danger that is more suspect.

[Balki Bartokomous]

@worcej,

I don’t really care for the hysterics. I can read. I am taking the time to read your posts and question you about them so that we can understand each other. I have read your explanation for your town read on Tem. I am trying to tell you why it doesn’t make sense to me so that you can respond and we can reach some understanding. Repeating the same thing back to me in bold does not advance this process. It is dismissive and makes me feel like you don’t want to be prodded and you don’t want to have a discussion with me.

I get that you think Tem is bad and so being bad does not necessarily make him Scum. I understand that concept.

My response is: sure, but wouldn’t he also be bad as scum?

I see how your reasoning might lead you to think Tem is Null. I do not see why you would read him as town for behaving the way he did. I am engaging with you because I want to understand. Take the time to explain. You have a captive audience.

I think the biggest issue is I don't want to make an effort to understand your perspective because, from my own perspective, you are going (and have been) to poke holes into any explanation I give you. I get the sense that no reason I provide is good enough for you. Effectively, you are listening to respond and not to understand to begin with.

Case and point on listening to respond vs listening to understand: your response that you outlined above. It is a 'yeah, but...', which is the exact opposite of trying to understand someone. You're trying to invalidate my stance by offering counter-arguments/logic. I don't know about you, but I don't debate people to understand them.

However, you did bring something important up: For me, there is no 'null' in this game - there is no Vanilla Null role. I think people get stuck on the concept of a 'null' read. The players in this game are either scum or town, nothing in-between.

In fact, with a gun to my forehead now, I would say you are scum Balki because you come off as hunting when you are actually just poking holes in other player's explanations.

Okay...

if you feel like explaining further, please do. The reason I feel like your slot is Scum right now is because I don’t understand why you were confident Tem was Town unless you knew it for a fact. If you can explain that using something more like “Town!Tem is more likely to do X than Scum!Tem” rather “I could see Town!Tem doing that,” that’ll help.

[worcej]

Okay...

if you feel like explaining further, please do. The reason I feel like your slot is Scum right now is because I don’t understand why you were confident Tem was Town unless you knew it for a fact. If you can explain that using something more like “Town!Tem is more likely to do X than Scum!Tem” rather “I could see Town!Tem doing that,” that’ll help.

If you don't understand why I thought Tem was town by now, there is no point in trying to explain it any further to you.

[xorxes]

worcej is very hard to lynch when hes town. hes a strong fighter for his perspective. the wagon on worcej felt scummier than worcej. So its worth looking into.

I helped mislynch worcej recently when he was town, because the way he explained his actions made no sense to me. The "reaction test" thing, when he claimed he was doing a reaction test to explain some scummy looking action of his. It was very similar to what happened with Temasek, it was hard to believe that his actions were pre planned. It's hard to believe that Temasek would want to draw a wagon onto himself on purpose as PR too.

And I also didn't care if my actions brought about my demise at the time because I was VT and wanted to create more information with my actions at the time.

What about this time? You thought it was likely that PR!Tem made himself look scummy on purpose? Even if you thought it was towny of him, wouldn't it be much more likely to risk something like that as a VT than as a PR?

[worcej]

@Balki (or anyone else) if worcej is mafia and was about to be lynched, why wouldn't he vote for Tem to save himself?

I also don't see how he could have been that confident that Tem was town, let alone a town PR. But even if worcej is mafia and did know that Tem was town, why would he risk dying just to avoid voting for town? What is his scum motivation for refusing to vote for Tem?

Towns goal isn’t to not die. It’s to find scum. Especially on a crapshoot day, if I strongly townread the other wagon and I’m VT, I’ll let the wagon movement give us intel. Even if I die, the rest of town gets intel by my flip and the wagons. Worcej has said the same already but less spelled out.

There wasn't much reason to strongly townread Tem I don't think. And it's not clear why anyone would think that their own flip would give more intelligence than someone else's flip. If he strongly suspected that Tem was a PR it may make sense to self sacrifice, but why would he suspect that? It's also not clear that he was in actual danger though, so I don't think his not voting for Tem tells us much. It's his saying that he would not have voted for Tem even if he was in actual danger that is more suspect.

I'll just bring this back up...

Hey BB, where you at bro? This D1 start is boring so far.

Foresight comment: I will be scummed somehow for this spam and my D1 play in general. Just remember that I said this first before the lazy scum player goes with that justification.

[worcej]

I helped mislynch worcej recently when he was town, because the way he explained his actions made no sense to me. The "reaction test" thing, when he claimed he was doing a reaction test to explain some scummy looking action of his. It was very similar to what happened with Temasek, it was hard to believe that his actions were pre planned. It's hard to believe that Temasek would want to draw a wagon onto himself on purpose as PR too.

And I also didn't care if my actions brought about my demise at the time because I was VT and wanted to create more information with my actions at the time.

What about this time? You thought it was likely that PR!Tem made himself look scummy on purpose? Even if you thought it was towny of him, wouldn't it be much more likely to risk something like that as a VT than as a PR?

What about this time? I didn't do a reaction test.

Are you referring to what Tem did? If so, with the knowledge of the flip I believe that Tem did his reaction test intentionally under the assumption that he wanted to get a target to RB.

I have explained why I thought Tem was town before his flip and that opinion is unchanged. In fact, it was verified.

Am I missing anything from your questions?

[xorxes]

Towns goal isn’t to not die. It’s to find scum. Especially on a crapshoot day, if I strongly townread the other wagon and I’m VT, I’ll let the wagon movement give us intel. Even if I die, the rest of town gets intel by my flip and the wagons. Worcej has said the same already but less spelled out.

There wasn't much reason to strongly townread Tem I don't think. And it's not clear why anyone would think that their own flip would give more intelligence than someone else's flip. If he strongly suspected that Tem was a PR it may make sense to self sacrifice, but why would he suspect that? It's also not clear that he was in actual danger though, so I don't think his not voting for Tem tells us much. It's his saying that he would not have voted for Tem even if he was in actual danger that is more suspect.

I'll just bring this back up...

Hey BB, where you at bro? This D1 start is boring so far.

Foresight comment: I will be scummed somehow for this spam and my D1 play in general. Just remember that I said this first before the lazy scum player goes with that justification.

I waan't scumreading you though, not yet anyway. I was semi-defending you, or at least trying to understand.

[xorxes]

And I also didn't care if my actions brought about my demise at the time because I was VT and wanted to create more information with my actions at the time.

What about this time? You thought it was likely that PR!Tem made himself look scummy on purpose? Even if you thought it was towny of him, wouldn't it be much more likely to risk something like that as a VT than as a PR?

What about this time? I didn't do a reaction test.

Are you referring to what Tem did? If so, with the knowledge of the flip I believe that Tem did his reaction test intentionally under the assumption that he wanted to get a target to RB.

I have explained why I thought Tem was town before his flip and that opinion is unchanged. In fact, it was verified.

Am I missing anything from your questions?

Yes, I think something is still missing.

You thought Tem was towny. You presumably know for sure you are town.

If you have to choose who to lynch between those two, you always choose Tem, unless there's a good chance he is a PR.

Tem's actions suggested that, if he was town, he was a VT (as you said above, you didn't mind risking being scumread for your reaction test because you were a VT in that other game).

If I'm not mistaken, you are saying that you thought that it was plausible that Tem, as PR, would do something very risky like acting scummy on purpose in order to get reactions. Am I understanding you correcly?

[Nephthys]

##GM Note

Sulit has asked for a replacement. A sub will hopefully be made shortly

[bozotheclown]

Yes... Perhaps I put more value in the chance that Tem was something I am not. Turns out I was right.

Really? You did not vote for Tem for purposes of self-preservation because you thought Tem might be a PR? When you say "Perhaps...." are you saying what you were actually thinking in the moment, or something else?

I am generally surprised at how confident you were that Tem was town. If you can explain why you were so confident, that would help me a lot in trying to read your slot.

I am confident because, as I have said, Tem is a new and unfortunately not good player. His performances in the game when he his PRs have been bad.

If you look at someone under that line of reasoning, I think you can see why I was confident he was town.

I do not think Temasek is that new, and I would not characterize him as a bad player. Can you elaborate on why you think he is not a good player, and what he specifically has done as a town PR that you think was bad?

[brainbomb]

Really? You did not vote for Tem for purposes of self-preservation because you thought Tem might be a PR? When you say "Perhaps...." are you saying what you were actually thinking in the moment, or something else?

I am generally surprised at how confident you were that Tem was town. If you can explain why you were so confident, that would help me a lot in trying to read your slot.

I am confident because, as I have said, Tem is a new and unfortunately not good player. His performances in the game when he his PRs have been bad.

If you look at someone under that line of reasoning, I think you can see why I was confident he was town.

I do not think Temasek is that new, and I would not characterize him as a bad player. Can you elaborate on why you think he is not a good player, and what he specifically has done as a town PR that you think was bad?

I mean.. getting oneself lynched is generally bad play regardless of alignment. people dont typically get mislynched if theyre oozing out towntells

[xorxes]

I doubt Temasek was really trying to fake scum behavior as a town PR, he likely just made that up to try to defend himself and it backfired.

I think that's the most likely explanation too.