Mafia 47 - The Sixth Mass Extinction - GAME THREAD [HIDDEN]

[EspressoPatronum]

I acknowledge that worcej could be bussing, but is he wrong? I've yet to see anyone demonstrate how he could be wrong and yet all the attention has been shoveled his way. And, for what it's worth, I don't have any way of demonstrating how he's wrong myself if that implication was not strong enough.

So you think it is more likely that worcej is town and has caught scum!Jamie weaseling a play that allows him/her to continue to fakeclaim Oracle until the endgame?

[...] Empirically speaking, I am currently of the belief that Jamie is likely scum.

[...]

I agree with you.

I'm on lunch break rn and will miss EoD. In an effort to: (a) make a meaningful vote and (b) maybe help save worcej, I'll change my vote to Jamie.

##vote Jamiet

[bo_sox48]

My new buzzing sense of passion is me seeing a way I can live in a way that doesn't necessarily cripple the town.

Why would you living have ever crippled town? This is a very odd turn of a phrase if you’re not scum.

In m46, Foxcastle was town but everyone thought he was scum. Town had a chance to lunch him to settle the matter, but they ultimately kept him. Scum took Fox to the end bcz they knew he was a lylo liability.... they were right.

I'm essentially saying that if you're convinced it's SvS, you need to lynch me now. If you think there's a possibility of TvS, then you should keep me around and it'll be like any other town getting scumread.

I don’t see why we should be planning on reaching MYLO/LYLO at all right now. We get who we think is scum. I feel like you’re trying to sweet talk your way out of that SvS theory.

[EspressoPatronum]

Why would you living have ever crippled town? This is a very odd turn of a phrase if you’re not scum.

In m46, Foxcastle was town but everyone thought he was scum. Town had a chance to lunch him to settle the matter, but they ultimately kept him. Scum took Fox to the end bcz they knew he was a lylo liability.... they were right.

I'm essentially saying that if you're convinced it's SvS, you need to lynch me now. If you think there's a possibility of TvS, then you should keep me around and it'll be like any other town getting scumread.

I don’t see why we should be planning on reaching MYLO/LYLO at all right now. We get who we think is scum. I feel like you’re trying to sweet talk your way out of that SvS theory.

Guilty as charged. It's a bs theory + I'll do whatever it takes to get rid of it.

We should always be playing for the endgame. Worcej playing for the endgame is one of the only reasons we caught Chaqa.

[EspressoPatronum]

In m46, Foxcastle was town but everyone thought he was scum. Town had a chance to lunch him to settle the matter, but they ultimately kept him. Scum took Fox to the end bcz they knew he was a lylo liability.... they were right.

I'm essentially saying that if you're convinced it's SvS, you need to lynch me now. If you think there's a possibility of TvS, then you should keep me around and it'll be like any other town getting scumread.

I don’t see why we should be planning on reaching MYLO/LYLO at all right now. We get who we think is scum. I feel like you’re trying to sweet talk your way out of that SvS theory.

Guilty as charged. It's a bs theory + I'll do whatever it takes to get rid of it.

We should always be playing for the endgame. Worcej playing for the endgame is one of the only reasons we caught Chaqa.

While unintended, the bolded statement correctly applies to both town!worcej and scum!worcej.

I meant it as town!worcej though.

[bo_sox48]

I don’t see why we should be planning on reaching MYLO/LYLO at all right now. We get who we think is scum. I feel like you’re trying to sweet talk your way out of that SvS theory.

Guilty as charged. It's a bs theory + I'll do whatever it takes to get rid of it.

We should always be playing for the endgame. Worcej playing for the endgame is one of the only reasons we caught Chaqa.

While unintended, the bolded statement correctly applies to both town!worcej and scum!worcej.

I meant it as town!worcej though.

I’m not saying we can’t make a move to avoid a mechanical mess later, or in Chaqa’s case to avoid having someone literally be unlynchable. I’m saying that we have three scum left. We should not be fidgeting back and forth on our reads based on who we think would be harder to read in MYLO or LYLO because if we get scum now, as we reasonably should, we’ll never get there.

You are consistently aiming to make yourself appear useful, and yet of all the blabbering you have been doing I have personally seen very little gain from it. Your claim was clearly set up to try and get you deep into the game, using darg as your scapegoat. He didn’t even try. It was the most dominant legitimate, unretracted counterclaim I think I have ever seen on this site. Your team had a fake claim left over that went unused - absorber perhaps? That would be a difficult role to handle as a fake claim. Your plan makes better sense.

So no, I don’t think you meant what you’re trying to say you meant regarding “crippling town.” I think you’re scum and that you broke the fourth wall a little bit there.

[EspressoPatronum]

Guilty as charged. It's a bs theory + I'll do whatever it takes to get rid of it.

We should always be playing for the endgame. Worcej playing for the endgame is one of the only reasons we caught Chaqa.

While unintended, the bolded statement correctly applies to both town!worcej and scum!worcej.

I meant it as town!worcej though.

I’m not saying we can’t make a move to avoid a mechanical mess later, or in Chaqa’s case to avoid having someone literally be unlynchable. I’m saying that we have three scum left. We should not be fidgeting back and forth on our reads based on who we think would be harder to read in MYLO or LYLO because if we get scum now, as we reasonably should, we’ll never get there.

You are consistently aiming to make yourself appear useful, and yet of all the blabbering you have been doing I have personally seen very little gain from it. Your claim was clearly set up to try and get you deep into the game, using darg as your scapegoat. He didn’t even try. It was the most dominant legitimate, unretracted counterclaim I think I have ever seen on this site. Your team had a fake claim left over that went unused - absorber perhaps? That would be a difficult role to handle as a fake claim. Your plan makes better sense.

So no, I don’t think you meant what you’re trying to say you meant regarding “crippling town.” I think you’re scum and that you broke the fourth wall a little bit there.

You're welcome btw, for "the most dominant legitimate, unretracted counterclaim [you] think [you've] ever seen on this site." It should have been an open and shut case, but scum did a great job at muddying the waters.

All my "babbling" has done one of two things: 1) aim to persuade people I am town, or 2) try to find scum. Forming a solid town core and using POE to narrow down the remaining candidates is one of town's best tools to find scum. This is why the scum team is trying so hard to keep me unclear and/or discredit me. Another form of town usefulness is to not get mislynched. If I can contribute to preventing my own mislynch, I should do almost everything* to do so.

Meanwhile, what have you been doing to help the town? Stirring up confusion, giving hedgy reads... need I go on?

*Barring niche scenarios.

[Jamiet99uk]

Because there was no point in stating it was scummy during the night in the off chance Percy was scum. Percy flipping town (at his death) made it more clear the motivation of why you would want to alter the plan instead of going along with my version.

This is only a partial answer. You didn't just not state you thought was scummy, you openly endorsed my suggestion and therefore prompted Percy to go with my plan and not yours. You are deeply complicit in the shenanigans you allege I have orchestrated.

I do not see how someone going along with something means they cannot have doubts, concerns, or change their tune later in hindsight.

The issue is, he claims he had those concerns at the time, but kept them secret so be could "expose" me as scum. The twin problems with that are (a) he caused Percy to follow my plan, and (b) I'm not scum and would happily have reconsidered my plan if Worcej had been willing to have a sensible discussion. Instead, apparently, hes now saying he falsely played along with my proposal, whilst secretly disliking it. This feels like a scum entrapment,.not a town hunting strategy.

[Jamiet99uk]

How come Bozo has gone into hiding?

[bo_sox48]

While unintended, the bolded statement correctly applies to both town!worcej and scum!worcej.

I meant it as town!worcej though.

I’m not saying we can’t make a move to avoid a mechanical mess later, or in Chaqa’s case to avoid having someone literally be unlynchable. I’m saying that we have three scum left. We should not be fidgeting back and forth on our reads based on who we think would be harder to read in MYLO or LYLO because if we get scum now, as we reasonably should, we’ll never get there.

You are consistently aiming to make yourself appear useful, and yet of all the blabbering you have been doing I have personally seen very little gain from it. Your claim was clearly set up to try and get you deep into the game, using darg as your scapegoat. He didn’t even try. It was the most dominant legitimate, unretracted counterclaim I think I have ever seen on this site. Your team had a fake claim left over that went unused - absorber perhaps? That would be a difficult role to handle as a fake claim. Your plan makes better sense.

So no, I don’t think you meant what you’re trying to say you meant regarding “crippling town.” I think you’re scum and that you broke the fourth wall a little bit there.

You're welcome btw, for "the most dominant legitimate, unretracted counterclaim [you] think [you've] ever seen on this site." It should have been an open and shut case, but scum did a great job at muddying the waters.

All my "babbling" has done one of two things: 1) aim to persuade people I am town, or 2) try to find scum. Forming a solid town core and using POE to narrow down the remaining candidates is one of town's best tools to find scum. This is why the scum team is trying so hard to keep me unclear and/or discredit me. Another form of town usefulness is to not get mislynched. If I can contribute to preventing my own mislynch, I should do almost everything* to do so.

Meanwhile, what have you been doing to help the town? Stirring up confusion, giving hedgy reads... need I go on?

*Barring niche scenarios.

Deflecting much? I’ve done neither of those things. I have two solid scumreads and two good options for a third. I don’t know what “confusion” you are referring to but speaking in vague gotchas while trying to get the conversation off of you like that makes me think you’re a little worried right now.

[bo_sox48]

This is only a partial answer. You didn't just not state you thought was scummy, you openly endorsed my suggestion and therefore prompted Percy to go with my plan and not yours. You are deeply complicit in the shenanigans you allege I have orchestrated.

I do not see how someone going along with something means they cannot have doubts, concerns, or change their tune later in hindsight.

The issue is, he claims he had those concerns at the time, but kept them secret so be could "expose" me as scum. The twin problems with that are (a) he caused Percy to follow my plan, and (b) I'm not scum and would happily have reconsidered my plan if Worcej had been willing to have a sensible discussion. Instead, apparently, hes now saying he falsely played along with my proposal, whilst secretly disliking it. This feels like a scum entrapment,.not a town hunting strategy.

I can see this point and acknowledge it, but I would like to hear you defend yourself instead of saying “no u” at worcej.

[Jamiet99uk]

I do not see how someone going along with something means they cannot have doubts, concerns, or change their tune later in hindsight.

The issue is, he claims he had those concerns at the time, but kept them secret so be could "expose" me as scum. The twin problems with that are (a) he caused Percy to follow my plan, and (b) I'm not scum and would happily have reconsidered my plan if Worcej had been willing to have a sensible discussion. Instead, apparently, hes now saying he falsely played along with my proposal, whilst secretly disliking it. This feels like a scum entrapment,.not a town hunting strategy.

I can see this point and acknowledge it, but I would like to hear you defend yourself instead of saying “no u” at worcej.

My defence is that I made a proposal for a use of my power, several people seemed to think it was a worthwhile idea and nobody strongly objected, so I set my reveal to Percy and gambled that the Mafia would either (a) NK me to prevent Percy being clear, or (b) NK a clear because they can't be mislynches. That's the extent of my thinking last night and if you thought it was a stupid plan you ought to have spoken up, Bo, which I don't believe you did.

If you want to ask me any other questions I'll do my best to answer.

[worcej]

Worcej, why did you agree with my proposal if you thought it was scummy?

The way you agreed with my plan yesterday, yet are using it as a key piece of evidence in your case against me today, is deeply suspect. Can you properly explain yourself?

Because there was no point in stating it was scummy during the night in the off chance Percy was scum. Percy flipping town (at his death) made it more clear the motivation of why you would want to alter the plan instead of going along with my version.

This is only a partial answer. You didn't just not state you thought was scummy, you openly endorsed my suggestion and therefore prompted Percy to go with my plan and not yours. You are deeply complicit in the shenanigans you allege I have orchestrated.

Just because I openly endorsed it does not mean I did not think there was a scum motivation in it. I decided to let it play out to see what happened instead of picking it apart during the night phase.

[Jamiet99uk]

Because there was no point in stating it was scummy during the night in the off chance Percy was scum. Percy flipping town (at his death) made it more clear the motivation of why you would want to alter the plan instead of going along with my version.

This is only a partial answer. You didn't just not state you thought was scummy, you openly endorsed my suggestion and therefore prompted Percy to go with my plan and not yours. You are deeply complicit in the shenanigans you allege I have orchestrated.

Just because I openly endorsed it does not mean I did not think there was a scum motivation in it. I decided to let it play out to see what happened instead of picking it apart during the night phase.

So, just to be entirely clear, you openly endorsed something you thought was scum-motivated, in the process causing our Role Cop to agree to participate in the plan.

I see. Such towny behaviour.

[foodcoats]

I acknowledge that worcej could be bussing, but is he wrong? I've yet to see anyone demonstrate how he could be wrong and yet all the attention has been shoveled his way. And, for what it's worth, I don't have any way of demonstrating how he's wrong myself if that implication was not strong enough.

So you think it is more likely that worcej is town and has caught scum!Jamie weaseling a play that allows him/her to continue to fakeclaim Oracle until the endgame?

Bah, you already see my point yet I had to explain it to you in a future post? wth lol...

Oh I definitely get it. If scum drew Oracle as a fake claim, that really sucks for town.

I am also seeing now why Percy was a terrible Oracle target. We would still only be able to clear Percy and their scan if Jamie died and cleared Percy. On the flip side, Percy was a likely NK target if they were (as they were) the role cop, because if Percy had scanned scum and revealed it, we could just straight lynch that person, because if Percy was lying we'd lynch Percy following and have guaranteed 3 scum in the bag. So scum!Percy was neutered already whereas town!Percy was likely to die.

...

So...

Seeing now that the claims are actually totally fucky... like, it would be better if Jamie had not claimed Oracle, because if town now their ability will not fire unless we lynch them, and if scum they will slide into end game... is this in any way an indictment of bozo? I was doing bozo's iso yesterday but it was so squeaky clean, but he was adamant AF on Day 1 about the mass claiming. And I would seriously argue that claims have allowed scum to pick off the PRs at the right moment this whole game, and with a few exceptions we are not really able to verify the claims.

[foodcoats]

Trying to fit bozo into my scumteam, the best argument for it may be how worcej has been shitting all over them. But then so has bo_sox. But both of those are scumreads of mine (EP being the third, or rather the first). Why are two people giving bozo such a hard time?

[worcej]

Trying to fit bozo into my scumteam, the best argument for it may be how worcej has been shitting all over them. But then so has bo_sox. But both of those are scumreads of mine (EP being the third, or rather the first). Why are two people giving bozo such a hard time?

I can only speak for myself, but bozo has had ideas that may have a good goal in sight, but should've stopped in his head before posting them because the net outcome/effect of implementing them.

Mass claim on D1 when you know scum has a list of town roles to negate a mass claim breaking the game - that's a bad idea with no benefits, though bozo thought it would for some reason.

[worcej]

So...

Seeing now that the claims are actually totally fucky... like, it would be better if Jamie had not claimed Oracle, because if town now their ability will not fire unless we lynch them, and if scum they will slide into end game... is this in any way an indictment of bozo? I was doing bozo's iso yesterday but it was so squeaky clean, but he was adamant AF on Day 1 about the mass claiming. And I would seriously argue that claims have allowed scum to pick off the PRs at the right moment this whole game, and with a few exceptions we are not really able to verify the claims.

So you think bozo would be a better lynch currently? I think I am following you logic, but I am struggling to find bozo inherently scummy - I find him mostly just bad.

Remembering the last game bozo was scum though, he had a tendency to avoid being on the wagons and played the distance game. However he is not doing that this game. In fact, he has mostly been voting on the top wagon, except for D2 when he was on Chaqa (who lost by only 1 vote).

bozo really hasn't left much of an impression on me with what he has said other than his bad ideas. It feels like there is a lot of fluff or a decent bit of bad questions. I do find it funny that upon reading recently, even he pointed out Jamie is setting up Percy to die (said this on N5) and now is voting me because I am bussing Jamie...

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh I thought EOD was today. I'll still miss EOD tomorrow, but I'll be able to chime in tonight and at my lunch break tomorrow.

[bo_sox48]

The issue is, he claims he had those concerns at the time, but kept them secret so be could "expose" me as scum. The twin problems with that are (a) he caused Percy to follow my plan, and (b) I'm not scum and would happily have reconsidered my plan if Worcej had been willing to have a sensible discussion. Instead, apparently, hes now saying he falsely played along with my proposal, whilst secretly disliking it. This feels like a scum entrapment,.not a town hunting strategy.

I can see this point and acknowledge it, but I would like to hear you defend yourself instead of saying “no u” at worcej.

My defence is that I made a proposal for a use of my power, several people seemed to think it was a worthwhile idea and nobody strongly objected, so I set my reveal to Percy and gambled that the Mafia would either (a) NK me to prevent Percy being clear, or (b) NK a clear because they can't be mislynches. That's the extent of my thinking last night and if you thought it was a stupid plan you ought to have spoken up, Bo, which I don't believe you did.

If you want to ask me any other questions I'll do my best to answer.

I don't remember reading your original plan in detail until earlier in this day, so I'm not sure how I could have spoken up. I can't remedy that one for you. I also do not consider it my responsibility to prevent someone else from going through with a plan with their own power even if I think it is stupid anyway, but that's beside the point. More to the point, I have been thinking up until just now that your death at night via the NK would also reveal your target, which is incorrect. That makes your plan, and your quoted defense, less contradictory than I initially believed.

That said, your plan was poorly timed if you are actually the oracle. In the best case scenario, we would gain nothing from it. We're one mislynch from LYLO as things stand if I'm any good at mental math, which means that lynching you in order to gain two clears or one clear and one scum, does not do as much good as simply lynching scum. At best, in the event that we got one clear and one scum revealed out of your death, we would end up with an even trade - you're dead, and the mafia team gets another town kill, so we lose 2. We gain a clear and gain a scum. We lynch scum the following day, and then they kill another clear. We dropped 3 to gain 1. Mathematically speaking, that puts us in the same boat as we are right now - one mislynch away from LYLO, only with less brains to think things through and/or muddy the waters, depending on how you see it.

In the other scenario, in which we end up with two clears, one Percy and the other his reveal, by lynching you, all we gained is a clear going into LYLO. We wasted a mislynch to narrow down the pool by one. I guess that's marginally better than simply mislynching someone today and getting no clears out of it, but it takes away the opportunity for us to get the advantage back on our side by lynching scum today.

In any event, lynching EP is the best play today. It is already quite clear why. I'm leaving town and probably won't be here before day's end, so please make it happen.

[xorxes]

I will be defending Jamiet on this one, even though I think he is very likely scum. His Oracle target choice makes sense both as town and as scum (as I said last night), so it's really NAI.

I have been thinking up until just now that your death at night via the NK would also reveal your target, which is incorrect. That makes your plan, and your quoted defense, less contradictory than I initially believed.

Well, you were right and now you're wrong. This has been clarified by the GM, right after I asked them about it because I noticed the same thing you noticed now, the role PM seems to say that the Oracle only reveals if they die during the day, but GMs clarified they reveal as usual if they die at night too.

That said, your plan was poorly timed if you are actually the oracle. In the best case scenario, we would gain nothing from it. We're one mislynch from LYLO as things stand if I'm any good at mental math, which means that lynching you in order to gain two clears or one clear and one scum, does not do as much good as simply lynching scum.

So what does it matter who he chooses as a target then? Say he had chosen Espresso as a target, would you be proposing that we lynch Jamiet to find out Espresso's alignment now, or should we be lynching our top scum read? If we're not going to lynch Jamiet, his choice of target is irrelevant.

Since I am convinced that worcej and Espresso are both scum, even though I think Jamiet is the third one I rather not lynch Jamiet today. I prefer to lynch worcej first because if he is scum (as it looks like he is) then that would be further evidence that Jamiet is scum as well.

Also, I think among worcej-Espresso-Jamiet, if they have a double vote worcej is the one most likely to have it, because he got to claim the safest role, and his counterwagon had at least three and possibly four scum on D3. Getting rid of the double vote will allow us to no-lynch if we make it to mylo with no clears.

At best, in the event that we got one clear and one scum revealed out of your death, we would end up with an even trade - you're dead, and the mafia team gets another town kill, so we lose 2. We gain a clear and gain a scum. We lynch scum the following day, and then they kill another clear. We dropped 3 to gain 1. Mathematically speaking, that puts us in the same boat as we are right now - one mislynch away from LYLO, only with less brains to think things through and/or muddy the waters, depending on how you see it.

So what do you suggest would have been a better plan?

In the other scenario, in which we end up with two clears, one Percy and the other his reveal, by lynching you, all we gained is a clear going into LYLO. We wasted a mislynch to narrow down the pool by one. I guess that's marginally better than simply mislynching someone today and getting no clears out of it, but it takes away the opportunity for us to get the advantage back on our side by lynching scum today.

Right. So we were never going to lynch Jamiet today unless he was the top scum candidate. So his target choice was pretty much irrelevant. So why are people focusing on that as if it was some big deal? I supported the plan, it was the best for town, and it was also good for Jamiet's personal survival, which he wants to do as both town and scum, so it was the obvious choice of target for either alignment, so NAI.

In any event, lynching EP is the best play today. It is already quite clear why. I'm leaving town and probably won't be here before day's end, so please make it happen.

I prefer worcej because I think he is more likely to have the double vote, but I'm also fine with Espresso if that's what most people want. The final wagon should have at least a two vote difference.