Mafia 47 - The Sixth Mass Extinction - GAME THREAD [HIDDEN]

[foodcoats]

I acknowledge that worcej could be bussing, but is he wrong? I've yet to see anyone demonstrate how he could be wrong and yet all the attention has been shoveled his way. And, for what it's worth, I don't have any way of demonstrating how he's wrong myself if that implication was not strong enough.

So you think it is more likely that worcej is town and has caught scum!Jamie weaseling a play that allows him/her to continue to fakeclaim Oracle until the endgame?

[foodcoats]

[quote=EspressoPatronum post_id=95339 time=<a href="tel:1564616829">1564616829</a> user_id=6868]
[quote=xorxes post_id=95334 time=<a href="tel:1564615293">1564615293</a> user_id=229]
@Espresso, you think worcej is town? Is his reaction here more like misunderstood town or like resigned scum?

He's town

Why do you think he is town?

Why do people think I am scum?
[/quote]

I am going off the Oracle exchange currently.
[/quote]

What specifically do you think about the Oracle exchange? Why does the Oracle exchange make you think worcej is scum?

[Jamiet99uk]

The problem I have is just abandoning mechanics in this setup would be foolish. This is where we catch the scum who got PR roles. Mechanics are important, just like reads are.

And yet you want to lynch Jamiet, which, if we go by mechanics only, is about the worst possible choice today (besides the clears and myself).

I was about to ask why Jamie is the worst choice mechanically, but then remembered Jamie's alleged Oracle target is Percy.

Considering worcej has been flipping his times tables and mathlording the last few days, it is a little odd. This seems to make it more likely that worcej is scum and that Jamie is the Oracle. Now is the opportune time to dispense with Oracle!Jamie.

If you believe me that I am the Oracle, now is a BAD time to lynch me, which is what I assume you mean by "dispense", as my flip won't yield info on anyone else.

[foodcoats]

Well, you're a player after my own heart, EP. Iso dweebs for life. But you're wrong, I am town, and I think you have actually twisted several facts below that I would like to correct.

When you say this:

- says there's one scum in Jamie, bozo, Percy, Vapor [note - the last 2 are dead]

...you are leaving out the fact that this was in the context of an analysis on the MoscowFleet wagon. I was looking for clues there. I said I was assuming that one scum must've been on the MF wagon, removed rdr and ItsHosuke for their claims, and did a full analysis of the other four's behaviour.

It seems below you are suggesting I dramatically foreshadowed the NKing/mislynching of Vecna's reads.

- says we should follow Vecna's reads. [note - they're all dead now]

You're also, again, removing the context. I said:

Unless Vecna crumbed something about being jailer, I assume they were killed for being onto something with their reads. So, here is an iso of Vecna's scum reads.

Regarding emc:

- apologizes for tunneling EMC [note - he wasn't on the EMC wagon D2!!]

I specifically apologized for tunneling them D1. I felt I had effectively lynched emc here.

In the below:

- Tries to lowkey discredit the masons: "So what exactly did Fox and Hosuke's posts prove?"

...I really just didn't understand what they'd done and was looking for help. In the full quote, I said "I assume they are legit." Now I am thinking you are literally an ass or you are just flailing, because you obviously either did NOT read my iso carefully, or you are trying to smear me by planting false information in the thread.

Are you writing this in the hopes that people won't fact-check?

- says he likes bozo's list and we should follow it.
- votes for bo_sox [note - bo_sox was not the top of the list. Foodcoats isn't following the list]

bo and darg were tied! I had previously scumread bo and townread darg. I was following my own logic and using the device of bozo's list to make a rational decision that seemed most likely to catch scum. On page 156, this was the most up to date list as far as I know at the time:

bozo: 3
bo_sox: 9
brainbomb: 0
Chaqa: 5
damo: 3
dargorygel: 9
emc: 4
EspressoPatronum : 2
flash: 6.5
foodcoats: 3
Foxcastle: 0
ItsHosuke: 1
Jamie: 2
Percy: 6
rdrivera: 0
Vapor: 3.5
worcej: 5
xorxes: 3

Sheesh.

At least I get why you think this is scummy:

- Votes for darg. Says he'll read over the CCs.
- "Maybe I'm wrong on this. ##VOTE EspressoPatronum" [Note - this is so hedgy is sickening]
- Says we lynch both bcz SvS
- shades the DP smokescreen theory
- asks Percy why he keeps voting bozo
- "bo you asked earlier why I switched to EP for no reason... I wanted to balance it and see if anyone would swing the wagons. Instead we got a pretty good dog pile." [this does not appear consistent with his play earlier in the day. I think he's backtracking bcz ppl didn't side against me]

My explanation was honest. Specifically, after I had voted for darg, I was reading back through the thread and saw xorxes counselling ItsHosuke not to bloat the darg wagon prematurely, to give scum a chance to try to save darg. I realized I had done the same thing, making the darg wagon that much bigger and potentially out of reach of scum's manipulation. I didn't want to call it out because it was specifically meant as a test.

This, on the other hand, was not a trap:

- Sets up an obvious trap question... "So the only conceivable reason for EP to be town is that it was a misplay by scum.So... how are Chaqa and dargorygel reckoned as players." [note - if you answer yes, you're essentially calling Chaqa and darg bad players]

This was in response to a question posed by Jamie, who was wondering what might be the scumlogic if 1. You are town or 2. You are scum. I felt like 2 was obvious and had been written about already. Ironically, I was actually trying to figure out here if there was some logical scenario where you are town and I should leave off my suspicions. It's funny, I had even thought, "People might scumread me for defending EP."

This is not shading or protecting, it is being observant and following leads:

- shades worcej for being manipulative [note - he's protecting Jamie]

I was super pinged by worcej's post because Jamie and worcej had, as I have already noted, appeared to have collaborated on a deductive strategy that pleased them both. Worcej whipped around immediately at the start of the day to scumread Jamie for working with him on that plan.

[foodcoats]

And yet you want to lynch Jamiet, which, if we go by mechanics only, is about the worst possible choice today (besides the clears and myself).

I was about to ask why Jamie is the worst choice mechanically, but then remembered Jamie's alleged Oracle target is Percy.

Considering worcej has been flipping his times tables and mathlording the last few days, it is a little odd. This seems to make it more likely that worcej is scum and that Jamie is the Oracle. Now is the opportune time to dispense with Oracle!Jamie.

If you believe me that I am the Oracle, now is a BAD time to lynch me, which is what I assume you mean by "dispense", as my flip won't yield info on anyone else.

Yes, what I meant was, now is a great time for scum to get you mislynched if you are the Oracle. If you are the Oracle, they probably don't want you to die at all, because it gives another clear or identifies a scum. But since you are currently set to Percy, there's no benefit to town - which is why it is weird that worcej, who is very hyped on mechanical stuff, is voting for you at this particular juncture.

[worcej]

And yet you want to lynch Jamiet, which, if we go by mechanics only, is about the worst possible choice today (besides the clears and myself).

How so? We'll never get a chance to lynch Jamie to verify his claim if we pass today. We either have to trust him (and thus clear him) or he is scum and you put the game on the line by lynching him.

I feel confident that he is playing a scum game based on how he is playing. Town Jamie has conviction, builds cases (right or wrong), and keeps going after people. I have not felt that Jamie has tried to really push many people to be lynched, he's been more following someone else's pushes.

No, I'm pretty sure he is scum. Who do you think are his teammates? Do you seriously think I could be his teammate? How do you explain my saving the Doc and the Cop D2, what did I gain by doing that as scum, considering that if I'm scum I was practically guaranteed not to make it to the endgame?

If you think he's scum, why are you saying my focus on mechanics would imply he is a bad lynch? I think you're confusing believing claims outright as just mechanics...

Who do I think are his teammates? That's a work in progress - the remaining pool of players have not been tied to the hip in any real way to make meaningful connections.

I've already addressed my comments on you: I don't waste time reading you anymore. Either you're town or you're scum and you will be known on D7. If you flip scum, then I will put effort into figuring out your ~~connections~~.

And again, end game would've been now if we didn't get Chaqa and darg so far.

Maybe. Do you think they are trying to save Jamiet? Because Jamiet doesn't need saving today, he is well protected for the day by the Oracle claim.

Who do you think Chaqa's cow target might have been?

General comment before responding: I do not think the scum would willingly try to save Jamie outright, I think his teammates are going to want to push a different direction instead if Jamie is scum. Especially true if he is the Human, which is their most important role atm (my opinion).

That being said - it's early in the phase and Jamie isn't a legit wagon yet. It's too early to draw any conclusion of food or flash based solely off Jamie. I think the low interaction and minimum meaningful posts from the two of them earlier in the game is more telling.

[worcej]

I was about to ask why Jamie is the worst choice mechanically, but then remembered Jamie's alleged Oracle target is Percy.

Considering worcej has been flipping his times tables and mathlording the last few days, it is a little odd. This seems to make it more likely that worcej is scum and that Jamie is the Oracle. Now is the opportune time to dispense with Oracle!Jamie.

If you believe me that I am the Oracle, now is a BAD time to lynch me, which is what I assume you mean by "dispense", as my flip won't yield info on anyone else.

Yes, what I meant was, now is a great time for scum to get you mislynched if you are the Oracle. If you are the Oracle, they probably don't want you to die at all, because it gives another clear or identifies a scum. But since you are currently set to Percy, there's no benefit to town - which is why it is weird that worcej, who is very hyped on mechanical stuff, is voting for you at this particular juncture.

WIFOM logic for you:
If he is scum claiming Oracle, you will never get the chance to flip him. He has the perfect excuse in front of you on why he will never be NK'ed either.

That is why I think he is the Human. The scum team should know that reality exists and should've saved that claim for Human to take.

[worcej]

I acknowledge that worcej could be bussing, but is he wrong? I've yet to see anyone demonstrate how he could be wrong and yet all the attention has been shoveled his way. And, for what it's worth, I don't have any way of demonstrating how he's wrong myself if that implication was not strong enough.

So you think it is more likely that worcej is town and has caught scum!Jamie weaseling a play that allows him/her to continue to fakeclaim Oracle until the endgame?

Bah, you already see my point yet I had to explain it to you in a future post? wth lol...

[Jamiet99uk]

WIFOM logic for you:
If he is scum claiming Oracle, you will never get the chance to flip him. He has the perfect excuse in front of you on why he will never be NK'ed either.

That is why I think he is the Human. The scum team should know that reality exists and should've saved that claim for Human to take.

Worcej, why did you agree with my proposal if you thought it was scummy?

The way you agreed with my plan yesterday, yet are using it as a key piece of evidence in your case against me today, is deeply suspect. Can you properly explain yourself?

[Jamiet99uk]

##VOTE WORCEJ

[flash2015]

Why do you think he is town?

Read my posts plz

But I'll synthesize anyway:
1. He made the Chaqa lynch happen,
2. Darg's ISO makes worcej look better as town
3. I think scum is pushing him
4. He was wrong in the EP/darg vote. I imagine scum!worcej would have followed suit.
5. Lastly, by process of elimination. Other people like food, Jamie, bo_sox are way scummier.

OK, thanks for the summary! So you think the Oracle thing was unimportant...or just a mistake/misunderstanding on worcej's part.

[worcej]

WIFOM logic for you:
If he is scum claiming Oracle, you will never get the chance to flip him. He has the perfect excuse in front of you on why he will never be NK'ed either.

That is why I think he is the Human. The scum team should know that reality exists and should've saved that claim for Human to take.

Worcej, why did you agree with my proposal if you thought it was scummy?

The way you agreed with my plan yesterday, yet are using it as a key piece of evidence in your case against me today, is deeply suspect. Can you properly explain yourself?

Because there was no point in stating it was scummy during the night in the off chance Percy was scum. Percy flipping town (at his death) made it more clear the motivation of why you would want to alter the plan instead of going along with my version.

[worcej]

Again, my version's flaw was a scum Percy could escape.

Jamie version's flaw was in the event Percy died, he would be 'worthless'.

A scum!Jamie would know this and want to set this up for an argument during D6.

[flash2015]

He's town

Why do you think he is town?

Why do people think I am scum?

I am going off the Oracle exchange currently.
[/quote]

What specifically do you think about the Oracle exchange? Why does the Oracle exchange make you think worcej is scum?
[/quote]

He said he softed Oracle to draw the NK (which makes no sense), then he says he didn't really soft Oracle when challenged then he switches to a third story about it all being a reaction test...then he goes off and gets all angry and starts trying to change the subject. It **sounds** like scum rushed and thinking on his feet but messing it up. What do you think?

The Chaqa push though gives me pause...though perhaps he was trying to get Chaqa to use the cow power and get townie points for nailing Chaqa? Or is this not feasible/realistic? I have to be careful I am not just justifying my existing position here...and I am actually looking at the evidence objectively.

[flash2015]

I really should have fixed those quotes.

[Jamiet99uk]

WIFOM logic for you:
If he is scum claiming Oracle, you will never get the chance to flip him. He has the perfect excuse in front of you on why he will never be NK'ed either.

That is why I think he is the Human. The scum team should know that reality exists and should've saved that claim for Human to take.

Worcej, why did you agree with my proposal if you thought it was scummy?

The way you agreed with my plan yesterday, yet are using it as a key piece of evidence in your case against me today, is deeply suspect. Can you properly explain yourself?

Because there was no point in stating it was scummy during the night in the off chance Percy was scum. Percy flipping town (at his death) made it more clear the motivation of why you would want to alter the plan instead of going along with my version.

This is only a partial answer. You didn't just not state you thought was scummy, you openly endorsed my suggestion and therefore prompted Percy to go with my plan and not yours. You are deeply complicit in the shenanigans you allege I have orchestrated.

[bo_sox48]

My new buzzing sense of passion is me seeing a way I can live in a way that doesn't necessarily cripple the town.

Why would you living have ever crippled town? This is a very odd turn of a phrase if you’re not scum.

[bo_sox48]

I acknowledge that worcej could be bussing, but is he wrong? I've yet to see anyone demonstrate how he could be wrong and yet all the attention has been shoveled his way. And, for what it's worth, I don't have any way of demonstrating how he's wrong myself if that implication was not strong enough.

So you think it is more likely that worcej is town and has caught scum!Jamie weaseling a play that allows him/her to continue to fakeclaim Oracle until the endgame?

As I said before, nobody has shown me any reason to believe that the evidence worcej presented should not lead to that conclusion, and I have not come up with any indication otherwise myself. Empirically speaking, I am currently of the belief that Jamie is likely scum.

As I also said before, it is very plausible that worcej is bussing his teammate.

[EspressoPatronum]

My new buzzing sense of passion is me seeing a way I can live in a way that doesn't necessarily cripple the town.

Why would you living have ever crippled town? This is a very odd turn of a phrase if you’re not scum.

In m46, Foxcastle was town but everyone thought he was scum. Town had a chance to lunch him to settle the matter, but they ultimately kept him. Scum took Fox to the end bcz they knew he was a lylo liability.... they were right.

I'm essentially saying that if you're convinced it's SvS, you need to lynch me now. If you think there's a possibility of TvS, then you should keep me around and it'll be like any other town getting scumread.

[bo_sox48]

Worcej, why did you agree with my proposal if you thought it was scummy?

The way you agreed with my plan yesterday, yet are using it as a key piece of evidence in your case against me today, is deeply suspect. Can you properly explain yourself?

Because there was no point in stating it was scummy during the night in the off chance Percy was scum. Percy flipping town (at his death) made it more clear the motivation of why you would want to alter the plan instead of going along with my version.

This is only a partial answer. You didn't just not state you thought was scummy, you openly endorsed my suggestion and therefore prompted Percy to go with my plan and not yours. You are deeply complicit in the shenanigans you allege I have orchestrated.

I do not see how someone going along with something means they cannot have doubts, concerns, or change their tune later in hindsight.