Mafia 47 - The Sixth Mass Extinction - GAME THREAD [HIDDEN]

[bozotheclown]

Guys, there is a possibility that Tracker is a fakeclaim role and both Espresso and Darg are scum and one is the Cow, and they have done this purposefully so that one of our town clears will blow themselves up on (likely) Darg.

So as far as I can tell, Chaqa was the first to suggest the idea of 2 scum trackers. Maybe the mafia knew dargorygel would get lynched over the real tracker, but planned to try to get them both lynched.

[EspressoPatronum]

2 has been addressed but I've been thinking about 1 a bunch. From every angle it is literally impossible for dargorygel to survive the 1v1 if EP is town, and exchanging 1 for 1 seems negative value for scum.

So the only conceivable reason for EP to be town is that it was a misplay by scum.

So... how are Chaqa and dargorygel reckoned as players?

This is not true. My DP smokescreen theory is another plausible reason. If they couldn't claim DP, literally any other claim would result in a CC, as even VT roles have associated animals.

The counterclaim guarantees one scum would die, that's my point. They could argue their way through DP if it is a fake claim, or they might have absorber.

But I also just remembered this happened before we lynched the cow, so maybe they thought the claim could lead to a super turn.

Also it seems you're arguing that you must be scum?

I see what you mean. I thought you meant the CC was the error. My DP theory assumes they made an error at that stage + were then forced to CC later. With this in mind, I agree - scum made an error at some point.

We have reason to believe the absorber isn't in the game.

That last sentence was phrased poorly on my part EP, whatever my reads I try not to be a provocative jackass online.

No prob! I didn't think you were being provocative.

[bozotheclown]

I’m trying to wrap my head around why there would be a counterclaim in this scenario and I’m not getting very far.

Guys, there is a possibility that Tracker is a fakeclaim role and both Espresso and Darg are scum and one is the Cow, and they have done this purposefully so that one of our town clears will blow themselves up on (likely) Darg.

Guys, there is a possibility that Tracker is a fakeclaim role and both Espresso and Darg are scum and one is the Cow, and they have done this purposefully so that one of our town clears will blow themselves up on (likely) Darg.

This is interesting.

Comparing our Behaviour
Look at Dargo's ISO. No mention of Percy (his claimed tracker target) in D3 or N3. Tracker!Dargo should have been signalling his reads to the town in case he died. He even had a perfect opportunity to disguise his read in the Tracker smokescreen I started on D3.

Now look at my ISO. I tracked xorxes and I'm trying to convey that I think xorxes is more town, but then I scale it up to make the smokescreen to explicitly write out my track. Nobody else participated in it the smokescreen.

Then there's D4. Believe me about work or not, but I claimed as soon as I could verify that the presence or non-presence of a RB wouldn't change the scum reaction to my read. I was getting townread the previous night (someone even asked me and flash or food about what I thought about being on neither bozo or xorxes' scumteam) and had 0 reason to put myself in a counterclaim situation.

I wrote out the reasons for my reads and how I thought they impacted the information state of the town.

Scum Theatre
Some of you raise a valid concern about scum v scum theatre... I don't think there's anything more I can do to prove my claim is genuine, so I'll instead invite you to look at how I've been playing and how I've played in past games.

In m46 when I was on the block, I wrote out an essay about how I approach the game. In that essay, I believe I mentioned my interest in the "game within the game" of town PRs vs scum PRs. As I hope you will see from my play this game, I have been focused on interactions between PRs and how I think town can maximize its chances of using its PRs. I do this most games, but my role as the tracker (and after a short while, the only apparent investigative left in the early-game bracket) has caused me to focus more on the mechanics of the game than reads.

I'll be checking in over the next few hours to answer any questions.

The way I see it we have to lynch both EP and darg now. I don't see why scum ever makes this claim or counterclaim except to push someone deep. I think the most likely scenario is this is scum versus scum.

It seems like bo_sox could be setting up the question that Chaqa answers with the scum vs. scum option. Espresso addresses it after only Chaqa and bo_sox hacve talked about it as far as I can tell. I think foodcoats is the fourth to mention it.

[EspressoPatronum]

I’m trying to wrap my head around why there would be a counterclaim in this scenario and I’m not getting very far.

Guys, there is a possibility that Tracker is a fakeclaim role and both Espresso and Darg are scum and one is the Cow, and they have done this purposefully so that one of our town clears will blow themselves up on (likely) Darg.

Guys, there is a possibility that Tracker is a fakeclaim role and both Espresso and Darg are scum and one is the Cow, and they have done this purposefully so that one of our town clears will blow themselves up on (likely) Darg.

This is interesting.

Comparing our Behaviour
Look at Dargo's ISO. No mention of Percy (his claimed tracker target) in D3 or N3. Tracker!Dargo should have been signalling his reads to the town in case he died. He even had a perfect opportunity to disguise his read in the Tracker smokescreen I started on D3.

Now look at my ISO. I tracked xorxes and I'm trying to convey that I think xorxes is more town, but then I scale it up to make the smokescreen to explicitly write out my track. Nobody else participated in it the smokescreen.

Then there's D4. Believe me about work or not, but I claimed as soon as I could verify that the presence or non-presence of a RB wouldn't change the scum reaction to my read. I was getting townread the previous night (someone even asked me and flash or food about what I thought about being on neither bozo or xorxes' scumteam) and had 0 reason to put myself in a counterclaim situation.

I wrote out the reasons for my reads and how I thought they impacted the information state of the town.

Scum Theatre
Some of you raise a valid concern about scum v scum theatre... I don't think there's anything more I can do to prove my claim is genuine, so I'll instead invite you to look at how I've been playing and how I've played in past games.

In m46 when I was on the block, I wrote out an essay about how I approach the game. In that essay, I believe I mentioned my interest in the "game within the game" of town PRs vs scum PRs. As I hope you will see from my play this game, I have been focused on interactions between PRs and how I think town can maximize its chances of using its PRs. I do this most games, but my role as the tracker (and after a short while, the only apparent investigative left in the early-game bracket) has caused me to focus more on the mechanics of the game than reads.

I'll be checking in over the next few hours to answer any questions.

The way I see it we have to lynch both EP and darg now. I don't see why scum ever makes this claim or counterclaim except to push someone deep. I think the most likely scenario is this is scum versus scum.

It seems like bo_sox could be setting up the question that Chaqa answers with the scum vs. scum option. Espresso addresses it after only Chaqa and bo_sox hacve talked about it as far as I can tell. I think foodcoats is the fourth to mention it.

bozo, you might actually be a genius!

[xorxes]

It seems like bo_sox could be setting up the question that Chaqa answers with the scum vs. scum option. Espresso addresses it after only Chaqa and bo_sox hacve talked about it as far as I can tell. I think foodcoats is the fourth to mention it.

They may have written about it first, but I came to that idea independently of anything they had said. I was waiting for the Tracker to claim because I was pretty sure the Tracker was going to be part of the fakelist. When we got not just one but two claims I was very happy.

The fact that they both claimed to have chosen me to track was also interesting, as wasting a track on a self-verifiable claim was rather pointless.

[xorxes]

bozo, you might actually be a genius!

And then you ask why people accuse you of trying to pocket them!

[EspressoPatronum]

It seems like bo_sox could be setting up the question that Chaqa answers with the scum vs. scum option. Espresso addresses it after only Chaqa and bo_sox hacve talked about it as far as I can tell. I think foodcoats is the fourth to mention it.

They may have written about it first, but I came to that idea independently of anything they had said. I was waiting for the Tracker to claim because I was pretty sure the Tracker was going to be part of the fakelist. When we got not just one but two claims I was very happy.

The fact that they both claimed to have chosen me to track was also interesting, as wasting a track on a self-verifiable claim was rather pointless.

You're forgetting about the narrative at the time that we'd lose before we got to D7, making your claim irrelevant. I can't remember who was saying it, but I recall reading several posts about it.

[EspressoPatronum]

bozo, you might actually be a genius!

And then you ask why people accuse you of trying to pocket them!

If bozo's posts save me, I'll call him whatever he wants, lol. Pocketing be damned.

[bo_sox48]

First, if you think I am singling you out to badger and antagonize, then you have not been paying much attention, just ask xorxes. My approach to dealing with you is certainly not based in spite. I tend to find things I do not agree with suspicious, and ask about them to determine if my suspicion is warranted.

Finding something you do not agree with to be suspicious is a poor investigative tactic and will get you nowhere, particularly with me because I'm someone who will speak my mind regardless of what role I draw. I expect people to disagree with me. I expect to disagree with other people. It's healthy. I disagree with people who are not on my side as well as people who are, and so do most of us here, including xorxes. For you to find the act of disagreeing suspicious and carry the assumption that you are correct as opposed to using disagreement as a launching point for you to understand the motivations of said disagreement and perhaps change your mind, or even come to understand that there are multiple potential resolutions to a single conundrum, is dangerous.

Second, I do care if you are town, because I do not want to mislynch town. I think you are likely town, but I question that for a few reasons: I question your D1 scum read of rdrivera, you did not take the opportunity to clear yourself D1 as bulletproof, and you joined worcej in personally insulting me instead of explaining why you disagreed with me (see example below).

You're right, I've been insulting you and deservingly so, predominantly because questions like the following that you have been constantly asking me for the last 48 hours are quite tiring on top of the other poor tactics of yours I have seen this game:

Were you crumbing a more important role so that rdrivera would not shoot you?

What are you hoping I'll say, yes? What a dumb, pointless question.

After the vig shot, did you consider asking to be lynched to clear yourself?

Wasting a lynch for a clear? Yeah, no.

If you are so sure they are both scum, what do we gain by lynching them first (before worcej)?

Fox even agreed with me about how dumb this one was.

....

I cannot fix stupid.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Sorry for being a dick, but it's impossible not to be frustrated by such a meaningless, plodding line of thinking that you've displayed toward me since the last day began. Like I said, until it was directed at me it was easy to ignore, but between general boredom and a pretty severe dissatisfaction with this game right now, it's remarkably difficult to remain motivated when every time I log in I have to choose whether or not to dignify a question like those with an answer.

Finally, I think worcej is personally insulting me because he is scum trying to discredit me in some way. I am not sure why you are doing it. If you just think it is part of the game that is fine, but considering you are site administrator, and as far as I know this site does not have any age restrictions, you might want to reconsider your approach before you insult someone who might actually take it personally.

My role on the site is irrelevant in this game, but if you're really going to pull that card my only choices are to tone it down or be a grumpy you-know-what. I'll choose the former and do my best not to conflate my dissatisfaction with your play so far this game with my relationship toward you personally. If that sounds good to you let's hug it out and move forward. Sound good?

[bo_sox48]

Guys, there is a possibility that Tracker is a fakeclaim role and both Espresso and Darg are scum and one is the Cow, and they have done this purposefully so that one of our town clears will blow themselves up on (likely) Darg.

So as far as I can tell, Chaqa was the first to suggest the idea of 2 scum trackers. Maybe the mafia knew dargorygel would get lynched over the real tracker, but planned to try to get them both lynched.

Could have also been looking for towncred in the event town saw through the plan down the road, figuring that with the counterclaim he was mathematically safe. He was clearly surprised that we chose to lynch him.

[bo_sox48]

I’m trying to wrap my head around why there would be a counterclaim in this scenario and I’m not getting very far.

Guys, there is a possibility that Tracker is a fakeclaim role and both Espresso and Darg are scum and one is the Cow, and they have done this purposefully so that one of our town clears will blow themselves up on (likely) Darg.

This is interesting.

Comparing our Behaviour
Look at Dargo's ISO. No mention of Percy (his claimed tracker target) in D3 or N3. Tracker!Dargo should have been signalling his reads to the town in case he died. He even had a perfect opportunity to disguise his read in the Tracker smokescreen I started on D3.

Now look at my ISO. I tracked xorxes and I'm trying to convey that I think xorxes is more town, but then I scale it up to make the smokescreen to explicitly write out my track. Nobody else participated in it the smokescreen.

Then there's D4. Believe me about work or not, but I claimed as soon as I could verify that the presence or non-presence of a RB wouldn't change the scum reaction to my read. I was getting townread the previous night (someone even asked me and flash or food about what I thought about being on neither bozo or xorxes' scumteam) and had 0 reason to put myself in a counterclaim situation.

I wrote out the reasons for my reads and how I thought they impacted the information state of the town.

Scum Theatre
Some of you raise a valid concern about scum v scum theatre... I don't think there's anything more I can do to prove my claim is genuine, so I'll instead invite you to look at how I've been playing and how I've played in past games.

In m46 when I was on the block, I wrote out an essay about how I approach the game. In that essay, I believe I mentioned my interest in the "game within the game" of town PRs vs scum PRs. As I hope you will see from my play this game, I have been focused on interactions between PRs and how I think town can maximize its chances of using its PRs. I do this most games, but my role as the tracker (and after a short while, the only apparent investigative left in the early-game bracket) has caused me to focus more on the mechanics of the game than reads.

I'll be checking in over the next few hours to answer any questions.

The way I see it we have to lynch both EP and darg now. I don't see why scum ever makes this claim or counterclaim except to push someone deep. I think the most likely scenario is this is scum versus scum.

It seems like bo_sox could be setting up the question that Chaqa answers with the scum vs. scum option. Espresso addresses it after only Chaqa and bo_sox hacve talked about it as far as I can tell. I think foodcoats is the fourth to mention it.

bozo, you might actually be a genius!

Since this theory seems to imply that EP is town, does it include an answer for why darg counterclaimed hours late when there was no potentially incriminating evidence presented in the first tracker claim?

[xorxes]

I don't think I've said it this game yet, but most games lately I've said that the best way to find scum is to take worcej's reads and reverse them. The interesting thing is that town worcej always replies by agreeing with that assessment. Town worcej is easygoing and self-deprecating. This game we have an aggresive and self-aggrandizing worcej. He also hasn't had any significant reads that I can use to guide me with, he has mostly spent his time on mechanics. If there is a double-vote, I'd say worcej has it. He picked the safest of their fake roles and he was saved by most of the scumteam on D3.

Espresso has also spent a lot of time on mechanics and setting up smokescreens but I have no idea what his conclusions from all of that are. He has been defending himself but without pointing at scum (other than dargo, which he had no choice but to scumread once the counterclaim was set in motion). There are many indications that the Tracker was on the fakelist: they ignored damo as a Tracker threat, several people including Chaqa and dargo, seem to have had crumbs for Tracker, they "believed" a Tracker crumb by Vapor that was blatantly fake.

Jamiet has also been weird. How am I the top poster of the game instead of him now that brainbomb is gone? His overreaction to becoming a small wagon after his drunk post was really scummy. I don't recall any of his scumreads other than Espresso, which he seems to have forgotten about. He had an OMGUS moment with me but he also gave that up. I think town Jamiet is more determined. Him being the one to bring up the self-sacrifice plan is towny I'll give him that much. We'll see what happens with that.

It's kind of sad that I don't townread any of the others, but that I mostly think they're town by POE. I think damo was my only strong townread this game. I even townread Chaqa for a while, but his last day I was doubting him more and more.

Bozo has been a pain for most of the game and I think he might have lynched me with the help of brain and Fox if brain had not been replaced by Tom and Tom had not put an end to that nonsense. He could still be scum if Jamiet is town.

bo_sox seemed to be absent most of the early game so I have no reads of him from that. Now he seems to be exactly on the same page as me, which is always a bit concerning.

If I was cop I would probably scan one of those two.

I have no reads at all of flash, but there are a couple of indicators that he is town: He is the only one that could have credibly taken the DP claim but he didn't. The way dargo went for him doesn't look like a bus.

I townread foodcoats early game but I don't really remember why at this point. He is mostly null as well.

I saw towny moments from Percy, but nothing as strong as with damo, so I don't know. He should probably be mechanically sorted one way or the other anyway.

I probably won't be able to post again before EON. Hopefully I survive the night, but If not, lynch Jamiet.

[bozotheclown]

It seems like bo_sox could be setting up the question that Chaqa answers with the scum vs. scum option. Espresso addresses it after only Chaqa and bo_sox hacve talked about it as far as I can tell. I think foodcoats is the fourth to mention it.

They may have written about it first, but I came to that idea independently of anything they had said. I was waiting for the Tracker to claim because I was pretty sure the Tracker was going to be part of the fakelist. When we got not just one but two claims I was very happy.

The fact that they both claimed to have chosen me to track was also interesting, as wasting a track on a self-verifiable claim was rather pointless.

It seems odd that if the mafia's plan was to have 2 scum claim tracker to get one town read that Chaqa would bring up the possibility of both being scum.

[bozotheclown]

Guys, there is a possibility that Tracker is a fakeclaim role and both Espresso and Darg are scum and one is the Cow, and they have done this purposefully so that one of our town clears will blow themselves up on (likely) Darg.

So as far as I can tell, Chaqa was the first to suggest the idea of 2 scum trackers. Maybe the mafia knew dargorygel would get lynched over the real tracker, but planned to try to get them both lynched.

Could have also been looking for towncred in the event town saw through the plan down the road, figuring that with the counterclaim he was mathematically safe. He was clearly surprised that we chose to lynch him.

I agree Chaqa trying to look good is one possible explanation, maybe he did not think the idea would catch on, but it would sill be a risk to bring it up first.

[Foxcastle]

I like the Jamiet/Percy plan, I think that will clarify a lot of issues.

[bozotheclown]

First, if you think I am singling you out to badger and antagonize, then you have not been paying much attention, just ask xorxes. My approach to dealing with you is certainly not based in spite. I tend to find things I do not agree with suspicious, and ask about them to determine if my suspicion is warranted.

Finding something you do not agree with to be suspicious is a poor investigative tactic and will get you nowhere, particularly with me because I'm someone who will speak my mind regardless of what role I draw. I expect people to disagree with me. I expect to disagree with other people. It's healthy. I disagree with people who are not on my side as well as people who are, and so do most of us here, including xorxes. For you to find the act of disagreeing suspicious and carry the assumption that you are correct as opposed to using disagreement as a launching point for you to understand the motivations of said disagreement and perhaps change your mind, or even come to understand that there are multiple potential resolutions to a single conundrum, is dangerous.

Second, I do care if you are town, because I do not want to mislynch town. I think you are likely town, but I question that for a few reasons: I question your D1 scum read of rdrivera, you did not take the opportunity to clear yourself D1 as bulletproof, and you joined worcej in personally insulting me instead of explaining why you disagreed with me (see example below).

You're right, I've been insulting you and deservingly so, predominantly because questions like the following that you have been constantly asking me for the last 48 hours are quite tiring on top of the other poor tactics of yours I have seen this game:

Were you crumbing a more important role so that rdrivera would not shoot you?

What are you hoping I'll say, yes? What a dumb, pointless question.

After the vig shot, did you consider asking to be lynched to clear yourself?

Wasting a lynch for a clear? Yeah, no.

If you are so sure they are both scum, what do we gain by lynching them first (before worcej)?

Fox even agreed with me about how dumb this one was.

....

I cannot fix stupid.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Sorry for being a dick, but it's impossible not to be frustrated by such a meaningless, plodding line of thinking that you've displayed toward me since the last day began. Like I said, until it was directed at me it was easy to ignore, but between general boredom and a pretty severe dissatisfaction with this game right now, it's remarkably difficult to remain motivated when every time I log in I have to choose whether or not to dignify a question like those with an answer.

Finally, I think worcej is personally insulting me because he is scum trying to discredit me in some way. I am not sure why you are doing it. If you just think it is part of the game that is fine, but considering you are site administrator, and as far as I know this site does not have any age restrictions, you might want to reconsider your approach before you insult someone who might actually take it personally.

My role on the site is irrelevant in this game, but if you're really going to pull that card my only choices are to tone it down or be a grumpy you-know-what. I'll choose the former and do my best not to conflate my dissatisfaction with your play so far this game with my relationship toward you personally. If that sounds good to you let's hug it out and move forward. Sound good?

Finding something I do not agree with suspicious does not mean I am not willing to understand reasons for disagreement, or that I automatically scum read everyone who I disagree with. The point of asking about questions is to find out if there is a reasonable reason for disagreement, or if it is an indication of being mafia. For instance, if I was the bulletproof, I would have taken the opportunity to clear myself D1. Since you did not, I wanted to find out why, because obviously if bulletproof was one of mafia fake roles, the mafia claiming bulletproof would not have been able to do so. You said you think a D1 lynch is more valuable than a town clear, and although I disagree with that, it is not unreasonable for you to think that as town. However, this does not account for the fact that by not clearing yourself when you had the opportunity, you opened yourself to speculation that you are scum claiming bulletproof. worcej said he soft claimed oracle to try to draw a NK and protect town PRs. I disagree with this and do not see any reasonable explanation why as town he would think the oracle would be more likely instead of less likely to be NKed. I believe he has back tracked on this now, but I think it is just a mistake he made as scum that he would be very unlikely to make as town.

[Jamiet99uk]

Note:

I am currently in hospital and my ability to post for the next while may be limited.

[bozotheclown]

I missed some D4 posts about the possibility of dargorygel and Espresso both being scum. It looks like Percy was the third to mention it, and Foxcastle and xorxes had discussed it before Espresso addressed it.

[worcej]

When we combine/intersect vapor's RB, and his suggestion of flash...

Maybe those things point to our first scum.

##vote flash2015

I think this makes flash look pretty good. Here's dargo telling us why he roleblocked Vapor.

I would never assume darg did not bus any of his teammates. The guy is pretty decent at being scum.

[worcej]

Finally, I think worcej is personally insulting me because he is scum trying to discredit me in some way. I am not sure why you are doing it. If you just think it is part of the game that is fine, but considering you are site administrator, and as far as I know this site does not have any age restrictions, you might want to reconsider your approach before you insult someone who might actually take it personally.

No, I am just simply an asshole. And your ideas have been pretty terrible this game and someone needs to point that out.