Mafia 47 - The Sixth Mass Extinction, Sign Ups

[Foxcastle]

@Jamiet: none of those things is relayed to a rules violation or to disregarding the GMs’ authority to make reasonable requests of players.

He did not commit a rules violation.

And as it happens, in recent memory, several people have had to be subbed out for failing to meet minimum posting rules. That's a rule breach. Are GMs ok to ban them from future games? I guess you think so?

Do you think it’s reasonable for a GM to request that those players reassure the game they will participate? I do, and I think it’s reasonable that if players won’t accede to that request that the GM exclude them, not for the rules violation so much as the demonstration that they are unwilling to follow reasonable requests from the GM.

[worcej]

To say that people's problem with chipperock is that he is 'different' is oversimplification. The GM s decision is reasonable. The next GM can decide otherwise. SMH

Sorry, but I don't agree it's reasonable to have to make someone say publicly that they will follow the rules when others do not have to make the same public declaration. Do we continue to do this with others who have broken rules in games?

And you're avoiding my big issue: when does he get to have the same treatment as the other players? At a certain point, enough is enough. I think Chippe has served his time and behaved in an appropriate way to warrant being treated the same as myself.

[ND]

Technically, and it is the GM discretion, but players who sub out of the previous game usually aren't permitted to play in the next. That is an actual rule violation.

This whole thing with Chippie just stinks. I hope the GMs reconsider because I do want to play. I just want to make sure everyone in the community is being treated fairly.

[worcej]

Do you think it’s reasonable for a GM to request that those players reassure the game they will participate? I do, and I think it’s reasonable that if players won’t accede to that request that the GM exclude them, not for the rules violation so much as the demonstration that they are unwilling to follow reasonable requests from the GM.

Chippe agreed to follow the rules in M46. Why do we need him to do it again Fox?

[ChippeRock]

Sigh.

Chippe, you're not helping your case any here.

Deadposting is explicitly against the rules. The content of the deadposts is of no relevance.

What case do I even have? The only power you guys have over Neph's decision is boycotting the game in protest - and I doubt any of you would actually be willing to do that.

I didn't deadpost last game - I didn't break any rules (doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, the GMs ruled that under the rules of the game, I didn't break any rules).

The only thing people dislike is that I leveraged the prejudice against me and my inexperience to play as a "noob asshole" persona - which got myself into the brilliant position of being clear town, but not dangerous to scum.

Additionally, my game play (by stirring up the pot) directly produced clear town reads on Carl and Durga as a result of their interactions with me.

As I so eloquently stated in the below PM to worcej, this is why I didn't break any rules (and why I didn't/shouldn't of gained an advantage); end of discussion:

To clarify, since you've been called by Durga, the Role PM of mine that I posted on the M46 thread is the exact same as the one provided in the OP of the M46 thread.

There is absolutely no difference, and for all the other players could know, I could of simply copied it from the OP - which several players seem to think I've done.

To clarify further: Players may not copy and paste any game related Mechanics. Players may not doctor, and create fake game related mechanics. Players may not share personal correspondence between GM to player under any circumstances. The GM will not confirm any claims, or adjudicate based upon anything that could easily be sorted out through questioning and evidentiary circumstance.

And since, from the information I've provided (which I have added no new information) and the information in the OP of the M46 thread, players can infer that I copied it from the OP, it should therefore be considered something/a claim that can easily be sorted out through questioning and evidentiary circumstance.

Making a statement about the matter could ruin my game by implying I lied - which could result in my character being lynched.

I am playing by (in my opinion) a winning strategy: I am gambling that fake proving myself as a VT will not only keep my character safe and give the Town a better chance of voting out scum, but it will also help reveal to me & my fellow Town (if I get lynched) who is part of the Mafia (by seeing who's piling onto my wagon).

I am not creating any fake game mechanics and the message that is causing the controversy was approved by you. I did not screenshot a PM. I'm not cheating. And I'm trying to advance my win condition as explained above.

That, in my opinion is why you should not make a statement in the game that could potentially affect the gameplay, and why I am not breaking any rules.

Nobody's going to change their opinions about this, so I'll stop trying after this.

[Foxcastle]

Do you think it’s reasonable for a GM to request that those players reassure the game they will participate? I do, and I think it’s reasonable that if players won’t accede to that request that the GM exclude them, not for the rules violation so much as the demonstration that they are unwilling to follow reasonable requests from the GM.

Chippe agreed to follow the rules in M46. Why do we need him to do it again Fox?

Because Neph basically told him (as I understand it) that what he did would considered a rules violation and asked him to reassure the community at large he wouldn’t do it again.

If I told you I was going to deliberately deadpost, or otherwise break the rules, would you let me play? If you asked me to state that I would follow the rules, and I didn’t, would you feel good about 1) risking what problems I might cause in the game, 2) risking that when you tried to address the problem, I would comply?

[Foxcastle]

The fact that Chippe thinks “but it helped my team in the game” is a valid defense of a borderline rules violation (rather than, say, an apology and commitment to be better) should be troubling to anyone who cares about the spirit of the game.

[worcej]

Do you think it’s reasonable for a GM to request that those players reassure the game they will participate? I do, and I think it’s reasonable that if players won’t accede to that request that the GM exclude them, not for the rules violation so much as the demonstration that they are unwilling to follow reasonable requests from the GM.

Chippe agreed to follow the rules in M46. Why do we need him to do it again Fox?

Because Neph basically told him (as I understand it) that what he did would considered a rules violation and asked him to reassure the community at large he wouldn’t do it again.

If I told you I was going to deliberately deadpost, or otherwise break the rules, would you let me play? If you asked me to state that I would follow the rules, and I didn’t, would you feel good about 1) risking what problems I might cause in the game, 2) risking that when you tried to address the problem, I would comply?

I would let you play after you served whatever punishment you were handed for violating said rules. Also, if you were cleared to play a game, played it, and didn't violate the rules, I wouldn't expect you to continue to make the same assurances.

[Foxcastle]

Chippe agreed to follow the rules in M46. Why do we need him to do it again Fox?

Because Neph basically told him (as I understand it) that what he did would considered a rules violation and asked him to reassure the community at large he wouldn’t do it again.

If I told you I was going to deliberately deadpost, or otherwise break the rules, would you let me play? If you asked me to state that I would follow the rules, and I didn’t, would you feel good about 1) risking what problems I might cause in the game, 2) risking that when you tried to address the problem, I would comply?

I would let you play after you served whatever punishment you were handed for violating said rules. Also, if you were cleared to play a game, played it, and didn't violate the rules, I wouldn't expect you to continue to make the same assurances.

I’m talking about before the game even starts.

[Jamiet99uk]

There was no borderline rules violation. No rules were broken, not even close.

Some people appear not to understand the rules.

[worcej]

@worcej and @Jamiet
You were authoritative voices because you were GMs. You are no longer the GMs. Just because you made a decision within the game does not make that decision right. Language like "As I've made very clear..." is all just your opinion. I'm sure you're aware of this, but I wanted to bring it to your attention just in case.

As a note, Neph's decision is not an attack on your decision last game. I think it would be perfectly consistent for you to say that you agree with your decision last game (as it was made under a variety of circumstances) while also supporting Neph's decision this game (made with consideration to a variety of other circumstances). I'm not saying your opinion is invalid btw... I'm just saying you're not forced into a stance.

You are correct, I am not a GM now and I have no authority, but my issue right now is how the community is behaving in regards to Chippe.

My issue is people are saying what Neph asked for was reasonable, which it is if it was under the context of a recent rule violation, but currently that isn't the context. The need for this public admission to follow the rules is 100% driven right now by people not liking how Chippe played last game.

I support Chippe's reluctance and (presumed) defiance to have to publicly state he will follow the rules because that's not reasonable - you don't see others having to do the same thing.

For an example, if we use M46 as the only evidence:

1. Are we going to demand Moscow post he will not decide he needs to sub out suddenly in the next game he plays?
2. Are we going to demand damo ensures he publicly states he won't forget to issue his orders going forward?
3. Are we going to demand Flavius ensures publicly that he will meet the posting requirements and not force the GMs to SCRAMBLE to find someone to avoid having to modkill them?

I already know the answer is no - we won't force them to make these public decrees. So why does Chippe have to?

[ChippeRock]

The fact that Chippe thinks “but it helped my team in the game” is a valid defense of a borderline rules violation (rather than, say, an apology and commitment to be better) should be troubling to anyone who cares about the spirit of the game.

Idiot. I specifically quoted my argument - anything outside of that quote was not defending what I did. So, no, I do not think "but it helped my team in the game" is a valid defense - because that was never part of my defense (which was in the damn quoted PM!).

[Foxcastle]

There was no borderline rules violation. No rules were broken, not even close.

Some people appear not to understand the rules.

There’s obviously disagreement about that.

You really don’t think it’s a problem that Neph has made a totally reasonable request of Chippe and he’s defied the GM?

[bo_sox48]

I said I would play without unnecessary drama, so I guess you can take me off the sign up list.

[ND]

I have decided I won't play unless Chippie is allowed. I guess that's what this comes down too. Sorry, it came to this.

[brainbomb]

cleaning your foreskin is important

ill play yes. im confirmed. yes

[ChippeRock]

Chippe: it doesn’t matter that they were “harmless”, you broke the rules.

For the heinous crime of dead posting without any access to the God thread...

Every experienced player has made a harmless deadpost like that, so what's with the double standard?

In fact, you yourself have deadposted Fox:

In Mafia 37, you tried getting (as scum) a Townie mislynched, AFTER the Day had ended (in which you got lynched):

FUCK YOU SQUIGGS

YOU'RE A SHIT TEAMAMT

That accidental deadpost was far more impactful on the game than my two intentional harmless deadposts ever were.

I don't recall that affecting your ability to join games and GM two games, do you, Fox?

[brainbomb]

ugh what a world. everyones quitting and no one is celebrating my return. no parades. pinatas. waygu beef sticks. minstrels.

[brainbomb]

THE THREAD IS ALIIIIIIVE
WITH THE SOUNDS OF

BRAIIIIIIIIN BOMBBBBH

[TrPrado]

As someone who was part of the decision I feel this is getting blown WAY out of proportion. Official statement will be incoming.