M1007 — "Mafia, She Wrote" Game Thread

[Percy Williams]

Why'd you choose to kill xorxes then???
Scum.

I REALLY don't like this accusatory Flavius.

[Percy Williams]

percy will log in once from darkest africa to tell us, politely, that we're all morons.

Sorry, I was busy blessing some rain.


My reads are such:
Most Town: Me, this is my only certainty
Close behind: Teacon, I strongly believe that XvT was town versus town.
Only a bit farther behind: ND. His actions all game speak town, very logical and trying to solve scum.

This leaves
Emc, Flavius, and Moscowfleet as remaining scum possibilities.
I'm most inclined to want to kill flavius, but it seems reckless to act that scummy as scum, but that's very wifom. He could also just be the village idiot.
With extreme emphasis on the lattermost term.

I believe Moscow is intentionally lurking to a scum victory. I know I'm one to talk, but EMC and I have claimed being busy, and I don't think it's hockey season.

[teacon7]

percy will log in once from darkest africa to tell us, politely, that we're all morons.

Sorry, I was busy blessing some rain.

Well it's been raining all day here, so... thanks I guess?
Be responsible though.

This leaves
Emc, Flavius, and Moscowfleet as remaining scum possibilities.

I think we could get our first scum in this camp. If we get one of them, we're going to have to examine past days and voting patterns and interactions to compare the next data points.

I'm most inclined to want to kill flavius, but it seems reckless to act that scummy as scum, but that's very wifom. He could also just be the village idiot.
With extreme emphasis on the lattermost term.

I get the sense from emc that this newbiest-of-n00b thing is a bit of an act. I'd like @EMC to weigh in on that? way back when in like the m24 range we talked about how some people might be "too scummy to be scum" ... essentially, trying to sort signal from noise. I'm naturally a too-charitable guy, tend to and as such I'd rather not be disrespectful anymore. If he's faking this newbie affect, it needs to stop, but let's take him seriously either way. Demonstrations in a followup post.

I believe Moscow is intentionally lurking to a scum victory. I know I'm one to talk, but EMC and I have claimed being busy, and I don't think it's hockey season.

Percy what differentiates your behavior from Moscow's? Like, from my point of view, the only difference is that I have meta-expetations for MF, wherein you're shrouded in a cloak of I-don't-know-you-yet, but that doesn't change the basic fact that you're lurking in a game where scum are gonna lurk their way to victory. Why should my argument about moscow not apply to you?

[teacon7]

Bypassing the content for a second here... Check out flav's vocabulary and sentence structure in these quotes:

I scumread him because he was acting radically different from our last game with him. It just didnt make sense to put two and two together. Then some people said things about meta not being the end all be all, and I agreed. Its a factor to look into but shouldn't be the determinant. I have nothing else on him. Case dropped. Simple as that.

I have mentioned it several times of why I am so adamant about teacon, I have personal evidence; knowing vapor was town, and then all the other dead confirmed town also scumreading teacon.
Are we really to believe so many people have made mistakes in their honest reviews? Or are they most likely right? Seems like a simple case to me. Use the evidence we have, not the speculations teacon leads us too.

I'm very very curious about flav quotes like this. "adamant"? "determinant"? multiple clause sentences with punctuation? I'm not trying to be insulting here, I'm noticing a stark difference between these posts and his last. EMC (who to my knowledge has prior experience with flavius outside of this and the last game), seems to think flav's meta is different:

Teac, I don't think we have a town!flav game

Flavius forgetting/not noticed who was NK'd shouldn't be alignment indicative imo, since he really pushed a derpy skin last game as incoherentnoob!scum

am a bit ehh on flavius - The way he talks in dip games is different enough from how he talks here (+similarities between how he talks this game and last) to make me question it a bit.

So... it looks to me like flav's general play is a derpy affectation, but he slipped into his normal speech a couple times on page 88.



I've left several calls out to him that have since gone unanswered. Flav needs to answer for several things:

• summarized from page 56:@Flav - what do you think vapor's last series of posts meant?
• re-phrased from page 72: @Flav - why did you sheep xorxes so hard when you got here?
• copypastad from page 88: @FLAVIUS - can I scumread your player slot for things vapor did? why or why not?
• Then a fairly important question from page 94, with quotes to show context:

  I meant in this chat, dont talk, or then scum can coordinate

  why not flav?

  @FLAV why shouldn't we talk at night? what did you mean by "then scum can coordinate" ?
  [/quote]
  @FLAVIUS why shouldn't we talk at night? what did you mean by "then scum can coordinate" ?

[/List]

Our "too scummy to be scum" guy could really just.. be scum.
Like it or not, there's a lot out there in plain sight.

Well there's a start.
If I make it through tonight (and I kinda hope I don't), I'm going to vote flav right off the bat.
Flavius has some things to answer for and he's been dodging too long.
Of course, the NK could change everything, I dunno.
Might be a good time to remember: everyone give reads at EoN in case you're the NK

[teacon7]

@emc - are you still scumreading flav?

@percy - why emc? what's the case on him?

@Moscow - iff you are town, now's a great time to show up and help.

@ND - hey you can't blame me for noticing these things.

[FlaviusAetius]

summarized from page 56:@Flav - what do you think vapor's last series of posts meant?

Im not sure...? Let me go back and look

re-phrased from page 72: @Flav - why did you sheep xorxes so hard when you got here?
copypastad from page 88: @FLAVIUS - can I scumread your player slot for things vapor did? why or why not?

I have answered these questions SEVERAL times, yet you keep bringing them up.
1) I didn't sheep him, I went on YOU before he went on YOU.
And had my OWN reasons for doing so.
I just think he was right because his meta, which I remember from last game is him being solvy, which he was in this game. Seemed like a town to me, regardless he was not who we should of been going after.

2) I answered that question SEVERAL times. You thought he was a cop, the things he did to you, led him to be a cop. So why the sudden change to the things he said lead to a scum? I asked you that question multiple times.
No answers.

[FlaviusAetius]

Why shouldn't we talk at night?
I've mentioned THAT several times as to why.
Because then scum can talk in REAL time.
You have been the only one to ignore this. Emc a bit too.
Wonder why!

[teacon7]

Why shouldn't we talk at night?
I've mentioned THAT several times as to why.
Because then scum can talk in REAL time.
You have been the only one to ignore this. Emc a bit too.
Wonder why!

Because it makes no sense flav. Scum can talk in real time already. Us talking here makes no difference. Why would us talking give them the ability to do something they couldn't already? please explain

[ND]

Thought about it.

Lynch order: EMC, Flav, teacon, Percy, moscow

[FlaviusAetius]

Why shouldn't we talk at night?
I've mentioned THAT several times as to why.
Because then scum can talk in REAL time.
You have been the only one to ignore this. Emc a bit too.
Wonder why!

Because it makes no sense flav. Scum can talk in real time already. Us talking here makes no difference. Why would us talking give them the ability to do something they couldn't already? please explain

I know, but then they can talk in real time to the things we are saying, and think of a strategy together on how to avoid it.

[teacon7]

summarized from page 56:@Flav - what do you think vapor's last series of posts meant?

Im not sure...? Let me go back and look

cool. They start here

re-phrased from page 72: @Flav - why did you sheep xorxes so hard when you got here?
copypastad from page 88: @FLAVIUS - can I scumread your player slot for things vapor did? why or why not?

I have answered these questions SEVERAL times, yet you keep bringing them up.

Because you haven't really answered them, iirc. Not really in any satisfying way. "Doubling down" is not the same thing as "answering." Or better put: you're answering in a way that demonstrates avoiding-the-question.

1) I didn't sheep him, I went on YOU before he went on YOU.

These are both demonstrably false. Look at what you said:

Siding with xorxes is probably a good idea regardless in this situation, so the evidence in my mind is just piling up on you teacon.

I'm with Vapor and Xorxes on this one guys, they're making the most sense, and with my catching up its just too clear.

...didn't you think vapor was scum? If you thought he was scum, why'd you then follow his line of reasoning?

We are keeping ND off that list, he's the one who led us to Vashta, and now you want to turn us against him. Interesting. Trying to create more candidates? Boy was xorxes right.

(@xorx) Do you think he's trying to buddy or sheep you?

Xorxes also thinking you are scum just confirms you more solidly as a scum.

In fact, xorx thought I was scum before you were even in the game:
Xorx page 41:

teacon and Vapor are my best bet.

Flav page 52:

I'm going to catch up on this game tomorrow, and then give all my reads, hopefully, some outsider views can offer a new perspective!

Now maybe you thought all this since before the game started and you've been riding this tunnel since before the game started, but that doesn't really fit. So much for "new perspective."

And had my OWN reasons for doing so.

Really? it sounds like you think so because xorx said so:

Xorxes also thinking you are scum just confirms you more solidly as a scum.

I just think he was right because his meta, which I remember from last game is him being solvy, which he was in this game. Seemed like a town to me, regardless he was not who we should of been going after.

Lookit that's fine, but sheeping because you think someone's on their town meta is still sheeping.

2) I answered that question SEVERAL times. You thought he was a cop, the things he did to you, led him to be a cop. So why the sudden change to the things he said lead to a scum? I asked you that question multiple times.
No answers.

You clearly missed my answer. It's here on page 88.. I'll repost it below:

That's not actually all you said.
Here's what you sad:
How can that be the case? If vapor was scum, that means you're scum too. You even said that you thought vapor was scum.

You thought vapor(me now) was a cop, if what he said pointed to a cop, not a scum, why are you scumreading him as a scum now? Makes no sense. How does things that look like a cop, radically change to scum??
Does. Not. Make. Sense.

mygosh we're getting somewhere.
I thought he was acting like the cop, for reasons quoted above. I was obviously wrong.
Vapor was acting like the cop and HE WASN'T.
I can't read him as the cop anymore. What motivations does anyone have for softing that they're PR when they're not PR?

You never answered / responded to my post above from page 88. But I'll continue the logic. If vapor was acting like the cop, but then he wasn't actually the cop, there had to be other reasons. Why soft a fake cop claim? That's the question I'm asking you, FlaviusAetius. Why would town!vapor fake a cop claim?

Whatever reasons I townread vapor for (soft cop claim) evaporated when rdriv died. Now, I have to re-read you both, knowing that he was faking it. Whether you like it or not, your player-slot still has the same alignment as vapor, so you're still in some sense responsible for the things he did, because you have the same alignment and perspective he did.

[teacon7]

Thought about it.

Lynch order: EMC, Flav, teacon, Percy, moscow

cool. Not to challenge, but to understand, I'd like to know:

Why Percy over Moscow?
Why emc over flav?

[FlaviusAetius]

Stop. Talking.
Questions answered in the morning.

[MoscowFleet]

@emc - are you still scumreading flav?

@percy - why emc? what's the case on him?

@Moscow - iff you are town, now's a great time to show up and help.

@ND - hey you can't blame me for noticing these things.

Working on it man.

[e.m.c^42]

To comment on Flav's style

First of all, he's not stupid lol
Even if his grasp on forum mafia intricacies isn't that good, he's still at the very least got decent instincts (i.e. finding Neph as doc last time)

and he's capable of conveying his thoughts in an understandable format (from what I recall from reading his press)

So even if this is just a style/skin he likes for mafia, yes, it does come off as rather fake.

Basically, I'm accusing him of what ND is accusing me of doing.

[e.m.c^42]

Like, to elaborate, I did this as scum in the last game I played, and I'm getting more and more of a feeling that's what he's doing.

A but deliberately made my posts rambling and not all that understandable, so that people either focused time on trying to make me explain the same point, or just sorta skipped past them since they seemed rather useless. If players are confused, they tend to null someone for it.

ofc, there's always the possibility I'm overestimating Flav, but again, he's pretty good at playing the noob card xD

[e.m.c^42]

Thought about it.

Lynch order: EMC, Flav, teacon, Percy, moscow

Lol, your reads didn't change at all.

[e.m.c^42]

Why shouldn't we talk at night?
I've mentioned THAT several times as to why.
Because then scum can talk in REAL time.
You have been the only one to ignore this. Emc a bit too.
Wonder why!

Because it makes no sense flav. Scum can talk in real time already. Us talking here makes no difference. Why would us talking give them the ability to do something they couldn't already? please explain

^
This

[Percy Williams]

Last minute:
If I die, my main suspects are Flavius and Moscowfleet.

[teacon7]

Stop. Talking.
Questions answered in the morning.

No flav, you're not getting it. You were scum in the last game, there's 0% you don't understand this.

mafia has a mafia QT they can use to talk at night. it's a private thread that the main thread cannot see. They talk and speculate about what's going on, and coordinate there whether or not we talk here. Here's a link to you talking in the mafia chat thread for m45.

The fact that you're not dealing with this is... well, it's significant. You've been playing a n00b card pretty hard, but this part in particular doesn't even make sense. Regardless of your alignment this game, you know how this game works well enough to know that they can coordinate anyway. So looking n00bish for this point (like pretending you don't know a mafQT exists?!) doesn't even make sense.