M1007 — "Mafia, She Wrote" Game Thread

[MoscowFleet]

Not gonna lie though, scum getting cop and doc on their first two kills makes me think the scumteam includes either xorxes or bozo.

I can get behind that.
You think bozo has a good eye for PR?
Who else here (besides xorx) is capable of that?

Yes, bozo is one of the more dangerous scum players around. Besides these two though... no disrespect to anyone alive, but I don't think so.

[ND]

Yeah I agree something is up there. It is a hardcore tunnel and it's distracting as fuck.

[xorxes]

@xorx - Are you saying that my alignment is contingent on flav's? or that flav's alignment is contingent on mine?

I don't think I've been saying either. My belief that you are scum has very little to do with anything Vapor/Flavius did, it was mostly what you did.

My belief that Vapor/Flavius is scum might be influenced by my belief that you are scum, which came first, but there's things they did that are not related to you that also point to him being scum.

There are also many connections between the two of you that confirm both beliefs.

So are you or are you not arguing that we're connected?
Why fail to say something about it last night, when you could have died?

I didn't really have more to add to what I had already said. Yes, you are connected, and no, that's not the main basis for my read of either of you.

[Percy Williams]

I realized I voted without explaining my thoughts, I strongly suspect Xorxes to be scum due to his long distracting logic argument against Teacon, which Isn't really helpful to solvin for who is scum, and leaves all the focus on Teacon and Xorxes, but with Xorxes having a loyal following of those who believe he is town and will follow him to the ends of the earth. I think that Xorxes is riding off of his town cred from the Damo lynch, and plans to get a lynch wrong while acting certain so that the Damo lynch isn't viewed as a scum slip for him.

[Percy Williams]

@xorx - Are you saying that my alignment is contingent on flav's? or that flav's alignment is contingent on mine?

I don't think I've been saying either. My belief that you are scum has very little to do with anything Vapor/Flavius did, it was mostly what you did.

My belief that Vapor/Flavius is scum might be influenced by my belief that you are scum, which came first, but there's things they did that are not related to you that also point to him being scum.

There are also many connections between the two of you that confirm both beliefs.

So are you or are you not arguing that we're connected?
Why fail to say something about it last night, when you could have died?

I didn't really have more to add to what I had already said. Yes, you are connected, and no, that's not the main basis for my read of either of you.

connections such as...

[xorxes]

In m45, that's how xorx read someone who WAS ON HIS OWN SCUMTEAM

I mentioned that as well, yes.

In m1007, is damo copying reads alignment indicative for bozo?

My first reaction when I saw that, if you remember, was to tell damo that if he was scum with bozo I would sue him for copyright violation.

@xorx - does this seem alignment indicative at all for bozo? please discuss, since you're the expert at seeing similarities here.

Nah, it doesn't really say anything about bozo.

If I recall correctly, that's what I said when you and someone else (rivera?) started discussing bozo instead of damo after I pointed out the copied read.

In this scenario, no wonder scum!xorx bussed the hell out of damo this game. If the scumteam is damo/xorx/bozo, damo was a real liability!

Well... I will let others judge how plausible that is. Nobody would have noticed that copy if I had not brought it up.

[teacon7]

@ND - I don't think vash is happening today, vote xorx with me.

@emc - please vote early. EoD shennanigans are poor form.
also: vote xorx with me.

If he flips town, hammer me.
The game is unlikely to be enjoyable while we're both alive so let's just get this over with.

[e.m.c^42]

I will outright say that I'm a bit lost on voting xorxes or teacon
or vashta

hmmm

[teacon7]

- He said he had voted for ND as a reaction test and not because he sumread him (he viewed ND's shennanigans as helpful to town).

Are reaction tests not common on D1?
ND did one. Do you accept that he did one? why not accept mine?

- He had damo as a second tier scumread, which in his hierarchy meant somewhat scummy but not a good lynch for D1.

You're making up a difference between "second tier" and "second in a lynch order." There's no difference. I'd also have moved to emc if that would have broken a tie.
You can't criticize me for sticking with my first choice for so long, and then turn around and criticize me for moving to my second choice.

Both of those things he did well before he could foresee that the EOD would come to a choice beteen ND and damo.

What is hard to believe there? Which of those two things are hard to imagine that a scum teacon would do?

Yes yes you're thinking I was forced to vote damo. But "forced to vote damo" is not a case in itself, it's an explanation to justify a scumread that exists elsewhere. There are plenty of other reasons I voted for damo.

Then he posted his bizarrely long EON post where he mostly defends his actions from my case, while at the same time claiming to believe that I made the case as a ruse to fool scum into keeping me alive. The post also includes unabashed pocketing of ND and very weird reads of Vapor.

I do not see why the length of teacon's EON post is alignment indicative.

Length + content.

Did you read it? (Serious question. I was very tempted to skip it myself.)
[/quote]
I'm glad you read it. I'm sad you might skip reading other posts.

Did it seem plausible to you that my case against him was a ploy to get scum not to kill me?

I dunno xorx. back when I thought you were town, getting N1'd seems like a real possibility. So also the frustration at getting N1'd. I felt like the towniest of towns after D1, so it seemed like you picked someone scum would want to kill, to make a really ridiculous case on them as town theatre. Maybe you've never done that before... I probably should have checked. I did that same town theatre thing a couple times in discord games and it worked pretty well. Darg didn't kill me because he thought I was itching to get someone else lynched. If it worked for me then, why not for you N1?

Does he seem genuine to you in his lengthy protestations that that's what he believed? (He didn't just say it once but insisted on that repeatedly.)

Come now, that's just second guessing. Is there anything I'd say you wouldn't question?
Why infer a scum motive when this is just as easily frustrated town?

If he did believe that, is it plausible that he wrote such a long defense/explanation of his actions, when he didn't even think the case was for real?

Good question. I wrote it up because whether or not I thought your case was fake, other people might have started believing you. Seriously, you scumread me for not being as enthusiastic as you were with needle-in-a-haystack reads, then scumread me for breaking a tie at EoD. It was a really silly case.

Did you think his blatant buddying of ND was towny?

I didn't blatantly buddy anyone. I agreed with ND's EoD1 assessment, and said I thought he was playing well. How does that buddy him?

Did his reads of Vapor sound genuine? He stated later that he believed Vapor was the cop. Did you think Vapor was the cop? Do you think it was reasonable for him to spend so much effort letting us know that he believed Vapor was the cop?

It explained why I stopped prodding vapor for information D1, and followed him to percy. Otherwise, I might have stayed on emc. I left percy at the 15 minutes out because I didn't want to risk the vote tying.

...why didn't vapor ever move to damo? Was he around at EoD1?

[teacon7]

I will outright say that I'm a bit lost on voting xorxes or teacon
or vashta

We all are.

Vote xorx. If he flips town, hammer me. Things will be clearer afterwards.

[teacon7]

In this scenario, no wonder scum!xorx bussed the hell out of damo this game. If the scumteam is damo/xorx/bozo, damo was a real liability!

Well... I will let others judge how plausible that is. Nobody would have noticed that copy if I had not brought it up.

That's a fair point. I doubt anyone would have noticed. But if damo was a liability, bussing him mitigated the effects of a bad read in the past, and prevented future information leaks.

It probably looked like this: he rands scum, trying to figure out how to play as scum, and rereading your last game to learn how to do it. He copies it into a txt file, changes some words around, and subs his scumteam in the same vague sounding slots you had yours in last game.

[xorxes]

##vote Xorxes

My main reasoning is how weak his case against Teacon is. Xorxes is very good at this game. I don't think it's possible he's been leading a crusade for 2 straight days as town on the back of this case. You can legit dismiss half of it as gut feel. The only reasonable part of it, to me anyways, is that Teacon has to some extent been doing the same thing he has accused xorxes of doing: misrepresenting things to fit his narrative. Now, if you guys are both scum that's a separate matter entirely.

It should be patently obvious we can't both be scum. Theater is not my thing.

But assuming one of you is scum, it just means that one of you is town who is tunnelling a bit too much and getting caught up in confirmation bias. Which, as good as your records are, is possible.

How can I be tunnelling if teacon is scum? If he is scum I might be accused of being ineffective in helping others see it, but not of tunnelling!

I am happy to be lynched today. Please lynch teacon and then Flav once I flip town, that's all I ask.

Xorxes being scum also fits the NKs perfectly, as there's nobody more capable of pulling that off. It also aligns with my gut townread of Teacon day 1. So that's where I'm at right now. I really think we need to deal with this today so it stops dominating all discussion.

I totally agree. My only concern is that you will all buy into teacon's "It was TvT and xorxes was a stoopid tunneller" that you can expect, but there's not much I can do about that.

If one of Percy, EMC, bozo, or ND are scum, they've basically had two days now where nobody has really given them any scrutiny. If we lynch Vash today and he flips town, that would be WCS, much worse than xorx or Teacon flipping town, because then at least things would clear up a bit.

Agreed. It's either teacon or myself today please.

[Foxcastle]

Vote Count 3.3

teacon7 (3) — xorxes, FlaviusAetius, VashtaNeurotic
xorxes (3) — teacon7, MoscowFleet, Percy Williams
VashtaNeurotic (2) — bozotheclown, ND

No one is set to be lynched!

e.m.c^42 must cast a valid vote.

23 minutes remain in Day 3.

[Percy Williams]

@EMC I'll vote Vashta with you if You don't like XvT.
I really don't want this phase to be stalled by a tied lynch vote.

[xorxes]

I still think teacon is town althought to be honest I have been a little disinterested.

Excellent!

I think I will actually be rooting for teacon to win from the God QT.

Xorxes town doesn't tunnel this hard. Something is wrong there.

Not even accurate, as I'm sure bozo will confirm.

In fact, I doubt you will find a scum game of mine where I tunnelled, whereas you will find plenty of town xorxes tunnels, some successful, a few not.

[bozotheclown]

I will outright say that I'm a bit lost on voting xorxes or teacon
or vashta

hmmm

Please do not wait until the last minute again.

[xorxes]

I realized I voted without explaining my thoughts, I strongly suspect Xorxes to be scum due to his long distracting logic argument against Teacon, which Isn't really helpful to solvin for who is scum, and leaves all the focus on Teacon and Xorxes, but with Xorxes having a loyal following of those who believe he is town and will follow him to the ends of the earth. I think that Xorxes is riding off of his town cred from the Damo lynch, and plans to get a lynch wrong while acting certain so that the Damo lynch isn't viewed as a scum slip for him.

*My* logic agrument? Have you even been reading?

Why is everyone being as scummy as they can be right now?

[MoscowFleet]

I totally agree. My only concern is that you will all buy into teacon's "It was TvT and xorxes was a stoopid tunneller" that you can expect, but there's not much I can do about that.

I'm not changing my vote right now. But on the chance you're town, I will be voting for Teacon tomorrow, as he has invited us all to do.

If you are town, and you get in the lead, a final reads list would be nice. You've said enough about Teacon that we can go back and find, but some more clarification on the Vapour/Flav slot would be great.

[ND]

I'll vote Xorxes to prevent a tie, but I prefer Vashta

[teacon7]

How can I be tunnelling if teacon is scum?

Tunnelling is the way someone makes an argument. Unwilling to consider other points of view. Filtering every last shred of information through preconcieved biases. It doesn't matter whether your conclusions are correct, an invalid argument is an invalid argument.

I am happy to be lynched today. Please lynch teacon and then Flav once I flip town, that's all I ask.

Deal.

My only concern is that you will all buy into teacon's "It was TvT and xorxes was a stoopid tunneller" that you can expect, but there's not much I can do about that.

There is actually something you could do. Actually consider whether this is TvT. You didn't want to, but ridiculed the idea as "backing off." What is this, a pissing contest?

If one of Percy, EMC, bozo, or ND are scum, they've basically had two days now where nobody has really given them any scrutiny. If we lynch Vash today and he flips town, that would be WCS, much worse than xorx or Teacon flipping town, because then at least things would clear up a bit.

Agreed on both counts. That's why I kept mentioning that we consider the possibility of a TvT. One of my first posts D3 pointed that out.

It's either teacon or myself today please.

Yes.