M1007 — "Mafia, She Wrote" Game Thread

[teacon7]

Indeed, and rivera was a good choice if the intention was to frame me because the obvious nightkills for me would have been rivera or bozo.

I've never understood the notion of trying to frame someone with nightkills. There's too much wifom involved.

Maybe you and HR should start an ascended-meta invitational league, where you could play (for a while) without the fearkilling. I feel for you.

Yeah, it's practically impossible for me to reach the endgame as either alignment but especially as scum, although I did manage it once.

That sounds legitimately obnoxious. It's the price of success, I guess?

[teacon7]

I agree @flavius, I think mafia got the cop by dumb luck.

One of the main reasons Durga looks scummy is how desperate she was towards the end of day 1 to get another lynch wagon going besides damo.

Was she that desperate though? I will reread but my recollection is that EOD was pretty dead, and trying to have some movement is not in itself scum indicative.

She looked desperate in my reading.
A move to Percy looked like one of convenience, because Percy was the next highest wagon.

She said she "didn't want to move alone." Moving alone would have put ND down to 3, and left damo at 4. How'd she have such a strong townread on damo that she didn't want to break the tie and see him swing?

[Durga]

Don't lie teacon, I didn't even push ND. Offering movement at EoD is not desperate. Lying is unbecoming.

[teacon7]

> be xorxes
> randed scum again
> awesome, randed scum with durga. She's decent at this game
> darn, all these people hero worship me, I'mma get lynched d1 or d2 just for being xorx
> first half of d1 wow lookit
> scum buddy damo is playing terribly. he's a liability.
> this is a short game, let's do something new. risky.
> can I do that? yeah durga's got my back.
> let's bus damo for *massive* towncred
> gotta make up a case. I'll pinpoint something silly and nail him for it.
> pulls case out of thin air.
> easy peasy, I know he'll flip scum.
> ::bus the hell of damo::
> ::pocket half of town::
> damo rolls over
> aw yiss he swings
> everyone but me is surprised
> bask in glory
> scumbuddy durga gives me credit
> vapor gives me credit.
> tequila shots in the qt with durga?
> nope, she's pissed
> cop NK because this scumteam is ACE
> okay teacon looks really towny this game. let's set him up to swing next.
> shoot he's fighting back.
> can't really move to the obvious other scum: durga.
> where the hell is she?
> implicate vapor.
> run wifom.exe
> I'll say teacon bussed instead
> can't say bussing godfather is good idea, have to say bussing is forced
> if teacon(status) == arguing {run Double_Down.exe};
>


> be durga
> aw yiss randed scum with xorx
> friend EP is here. run show_off.exe
> ND is pissin me off
> he'll swing for this
> "xorx has my back"
> what the hell scumbuddy damo is counterwagon
> what the hell scumbuddy xorx is pushing the wagon
> vote is tied
> xorx Y U bus so hard?
> T-1:51 to EoD1. Gotta get his attention.

We should honestly just lynch xorxes he's totally scum

> it's still tied
> scumbuddy damo could swing
> someone's gotta move.
> maybe people will get panicky and move off of damo if they think EoD is in two minutes?
> why the hell is xorx bussing?
> can't talk to him though. (http://mafia.peterlund.se/e/web/msgs?g= ... user=Durga)
> gotta make another wagon.
> teacon's not moving
> emc's not moving
> can't make it tie, can't make it
> maybe we pile on percy?
> damo swings
> damage control
> QT post says to give xorx credit
> run giveCredit.exe -xorx
> xorx pushes teacon all N1.
> cop NK because this scumteam is ACE
> lol teacon disappeared this could work
> D2. everyone's voting for me anyway
> xorx under heavy fire
> ragequit.exe


---

I've asked the question several times now because I think it's important for parsing EoD.

Under what conditions would scum bus (vote+lynch) their godfather on D1?

I think it's an important question for parsing the EoD wagons. Durga looks really scummy there imo, for reasons sketched out in amusing greentext above.

I think it's hard to believe that scum would bus their godfather. Yet both xorx and I are arguing on the premise that scum would, in fact, bus under certain conditions.

His answer is something like: the bus was forced, because losing the gf was better than failing to move. I don't think that's reasonable at all, but you'll have to decide for yourself if his case is true or even valid.

I'm a lot less certain than xorx is, because I have imperfect information.
My argument goes something like this: Scum would bus the GF for towncred.
xorx is tired of getting lynched/shot d2/n2
It's a decent move for a highly respected player (like xorx, HR), who will need the towncred to live into the late game.
damo was a liability anyway
durga's a decent player, the two of them could probably manipulat things into the late game.

@xorxes -
Do you think shy scum interacting only with his teammates is good scum play?

It's horrible scum play, as shown in this game.

Do you think that'd be a liability for the scumteam?

Yep.

All good points. It would be the first time I bus my teammates so brazenly, but I will have to try it some time as scum.

I'll say again:
Under what conditions would scum bus (vote+lynch) their godfather?

Maybe you would play it differently as scum. If you were scum, Xorxes, under what conditions would you bus the godfather?

I practically never bus, and I usually don't even scumread my teammates, so I doubt I'd find myself in that position.

I don't know if xorx busses often, or at all.
Someone look him up on that. Look me up too.

All good points. It would be the first time I bus my teammates so brazenly, but I will have to try it some time as scum.

Only problem is, what happens after I get lots of towncred and survive N1 and N2? I can only try that strategy in a game with complicated mechanics that could explain my survival because scum are busy with other things, fearful of saves, and so on, but in this vanilla setup early credibility for me at the expense of a teammate is of no use, because it vanishes as soon as I survive the nightkills.

Nah. You'd just spam cases looking for reasons and paint me as scum by attrition. Wear everyone down by saying that same untrue thing until it "becomes" true. Then, when I flip town, you do the same thing to ND. It wouldn't last forever, but if you had a good team mate you could probably set up conditions for enough ML's to win after you're dead. Besides, if bozo is right here, it's not like scum!xorxes has many other options.

Really? Doesn't sound like any version of scum!me that I can remember.

So, perhaps you can explain why scum!xorxes would lead the lynch on damo when it was not going to happen D1? Scum xorxes knows that even if he plays a very convincing townie, he ends up being lynched D3 or D4 (last game it was D4, but that's only because brainbomb helped me a lot, it's usually D3). So scum!xorxes burns the godfather (even if he was awful, he had a good shot at being scanned and "semi-cleared" and last a long time) knowing that I will be lynched D3 or D4 tops? No, it doesn't add up.

Next move: try to look as towny as possible in a massive push on someone. look town in the process. get someone besides durga lynched. Teacon is gone, Teacon was thinking, that's a solid idea. You'll probably still die d3 or d4, but that puts your remaining teammate closer to the win.

If you're scum with durga, that's going to be pretty hard.
If you're scum with someone else (not likely in my thinking, but I'm entertaining different scenarios) you could be laying groundwork for someone in a deep cover lurking situation.

It is possible. People try new things. You have motive because dying every d2 is boring. I do think it's a bit strange. Why would scum bus the gf day one? It's telling that I'm not the only one who is asking that question though.

I wouldn't really have noticed... if durga didn't try to get your attention D1
I wouldn't really have noticed... if durga didn't try to give you towncred
I wouldn't really have noticed... if xorx was making a coherent, logical case on me that wasn't full of holes and extended contingencies. Why push me this hard on such a haphazard set of circumstantial evidence?

@xorxes I'm tired of arguing back and forth. There's a chance this is TvT. I'm not so certain of myself, and if you are so certain of yourself, we all ought to wonder why. What else have you considered today?

We're both arguing ourselves into tunnels, potentially made of omgus. Even if I'm right, that's not good for town. The sheer volume of posts is bad for town discussion, imo. I think there's a chance you're scum, and the outline is listed above. Would it be helpful to have one conversation back and forth, rather than pages and pages of in-line quoting? @everyone not xorx and myself, please advise.

Durga should swing today. Will xorx vote for or interact with durga? Is he okay with that lynch? She did ask to lynch him once. Remember?

We should honestly just lynch xorxes he's totally scum

[Durga]

I obviously wasn't pushing xorx with that post. Like what? Why would I lynch xorx day 1 when his alignment becomes blatantly obvious by day 3. I was just saying that because I didn't like how he was playing. Clearly he was playing better than me, but fixating on that comment is ridiculous. You keep taking non scummy shit and pretending it's scummy. Being wrong isn't scummy, and the way I went about EoD isn't how mafia would do so. Especially knowing teacon is scum. Why would I make myself look bad like that if I knew xorx was pushing him and he was fucked?

[Durga]

"Durga should swing today. Will xorx vote for or interact with durga? Is he okay with that lynch? She did ask to lynch him once. Remember?"

This is insanely blatantly manipulative and scummy. Who says this kind of shit.

[Durga]

Vote Count 2.1

Durga (5) — ND, teacon7, Percy Williams, VashtaNeurotic, MoscowFleet
teacon7 (3) — xorxes, EspressoPatronum, FlaviusAetius
VashtaNeurotic (2) —Durga, bozotheclown

Durga is set to be lynched!

Just under 9 hours remain in Day 2.
e.m.c^42 must meet posting requirements and make a valid vote.

And, for those of you who +1'd me to over 300 (glory!), here is your reward.

Wow guys I'm actually not scum. I don't mind being lynched and I'm not a PR, but this is some masterful scum shit

[Durga]

I'm not really sure how teacon is scum reading xorx. I'm gonna grab my laptop and start reading the thread while I recover from my hangover. Does scum teacon do something as blatantly ridiculous as take on xorx?

[ND]

I thought she would come back the last hour of phase. She came back six hours early. I am surprised. Wow. But it changes nothing she is ultra scum.

[Durga]

I thought she would come back the last hour of phase. She came back six hours early. I am surprised. Wow. But it changes nothing she is ultra scum.

Stop. Playing. Mafia. If. You're. Never. Willing. To. Change. Your. Shit. Reads. Bye.

[ND]

I thought she would come back the last hour of phase. She came back six hours early. I am surprised. Wow. But it changes nothing she is ultra scum.

Stop. Playing. Mafia. If. You're. Never. Willing. To. Change. Your. Shit. Reads. Bye.

You are proven scum it's why you avoided the thread for two days. You may as well concede. It's over for you.

[Durga]

It was the weekend. Unlike you, I have a life.

Anyway, can everyone voting me tell me why they prefer my lynch over Vash? It seems the main reason for my "scumminess" is that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Which, Vash literally has not provided one thought of is own that is worth any substance.

I'm a bit creeped out that certain people have just parked their vote on me in one post and dipped. Ie, Moscow + Vash

[Durga]

Anyone who was around for EoD and saw the way xorx was pushing damo's lynch should figure out that xorx is town. Also the fact that xorx fixated on the weirdest thing about damo to get him lynched is SO classic town xorx. I've never seen him replicate this kind of behaviour as scum. In fact, xorx has told me that he doesn't play full press diplomacy anymore because he just hates lying and sucks at it. Anyone been in a game with him as scum can easily see that too. No way is he suddenly a mastermind.

[Durga]

Wow Vapor went through a series of really fucking weird posts on pg 47. What was up with that

[Durga]

Durga get some scum points for trying to get a wagon going on Percy later.

Please note: the cop had the same feeling I did about durga trying to get new wagons formed at EoD. scummy.

rdr has been wrong about me in about every game ever, so it's pretty meaningless.

[Durga]

Wow, nice! Very surprised at the turn of events - Damo wasn't on my radar at all.

Good call @Xorxes and the others who made it happen last minute. I'll have to go comb through the past few pages to see how you figured it out. Was it just the one post re: bozo's play, or was there more?

Thanks for noting everyone else who was instrumental to the lynch.

I'll point out that the majority of the people on that wagon weren't there because of xorx. Assigning sole credit for a lynch is... neither correct, nor pro-town behavior. People think through things on their own terms.

I feel like you have some kind of inferiority complex.

[Durga]

Question to the more experienced players, how sus is last minute voting? Flipping last minute is usually rly shady in person, but I'm also getting the vibe that forum EOD is always busy.

In any case, the people who went on Damo closest to the end were EMC, Teacon, and Moscow. Might be worth keeping an eye on them on D2.

It's not just last minute voting, but also last minute pushes. fwiw, this EoD1 was relatively calm. I think there's lots to learn from it, but it was relatively calm.

It is important to avoid ties. Ties mean no-lynch, which really sets us back in terms of information.

EoD1 saw two wagons tied at 4 votes. Three players moved from lesser wagons onto damo.

Durga advocated starting two other lynches: xorxes and percy.
Neither really took off.
I wonder if she thought damo was going to take off over ND, so she worked to create alternatives. "we're running out of time" or "hey let's lynch xorxes" or "how about percy" etc

What are the chances the scumteam is damo/ND/durga?
She intended to bus early in D1, but then when there were two scum wagons she tried to create something else? hm.

It's things like this that make me think that you don't actually scum read me, but you're looking for reasons to scum read me.

The way you're approaching your entire read of me isn't that I said something that was scummy and therefore you think I'm scum (the way town finds scum - the way xorx found damo for example). But you've decided since before the end of day 1 that you were going to scum read me, and now you're trying to find a line of reasoning that will fit into that narrative. That is how scum tries to get people mislynched.

[Durga]

What's this whole teacon thinking vapour was cop and vapour claiming that he was roleblocked thing.

[Durga]

My end of day actions were incredibly normal actually. If you think about the fact that they come from a towns perspective. I have no idea who scum is. I didn't think it was damo, and thought xorx's reason for voting him was weird. If I had known it was damo, there is NO WAY I would have been so blatant and edgy because I would know that xorx has a good record in getting the lynches he wants.

Anyone with half a brain should figure this out pretty quickly. Teacon tries to weirdly explain it away by saying that I'm either scum with ND+damo or scum with xorx+damo. This is actually asinine and built on NOTHING but the fact that I've interacted at some degree with both of them.

Teacon you need to point to actual scummy shit. Wanting another wagon because I was scared of a lack of movement is actually a pretty townie thing for me to do. Lynching damo for cred is what I would have done if I was scum.

[Durga]

I highly doubt Xorxes is scum bro.

I did too. Now I'm not so sure. I'd really like someone to help me avoid an OMGUS tunnel here, but I can't figure out why he's a) not dead, b) making long-stretch cases on me right after a scum lynch my vote was instrumental for.

Lmao maybe he's not dead because we have a doc who is very likely to save him and so your team decided not to take the risk. Come on, for all the "thinking" you do I can't understand how you still make statements like this teacon.

"b)" reads to me as if you voted damo with the idea that you would get town cred because he would flip scum, and you're frustrated that it had the opposite effect