M1007 — "Mafia, She Wrote" Game Thread

[xorxes]

I highly doubt Xorxes is scum bro.

I did too. Now I'm not so sure. I'd really like someone to help me avoid an OMGUS tunnel here, but I can't figure out why he's a) not dead, b) making long-stretch cases on me right after a scum lynch my vote was instrumental for.

I'm not dead because:

(1) there was a chance I might be doc-saved
(2) I had shown extreme conviction that you are scum, and that's a good reason to let me live both if you are town (because then scum can celebrate me trying to lynch you) or if I am right (because otherwise you risk people listening to me and lynching you once it's established my intentions were pure).

So I'm not sure why you think it's so unlikely I'm not dead. I'm an early NK in most of my town games, but rarely N1 because scum are afraid of saves (this was less important this time because of the one-shot only, but still a factor).

As for the case on you, I have shown why your vote does not really exonerate you because it was pretty much forced. The fact you won't even admit that your vote was pretty much forced is also telling.

[xorxes]

plz don't get offended. I've been in a similar situation all weekend.

I'm not offended, just letting people know there's no meta to draw on from that, and that I will never make end of phase.

Are you in Australia, sorry I forgot if you were?

[xorxes]

xorxes, are you okay?

My post states that I wasn't visited by any hooker, why are you twisting this around?

was bozo right about you? I can't recognise what you're doing anymore

I had not read your retraction yet.

[xorxes]

-snip-

If at this point ND and Vash don't lead a lynch on you they are absolute morons, and I don't believe that's the case. So you are lynched and Vapor NKs say Espresso.

That leaves for D5:

e.m.c^42
ND
Percy Williams
Vaporwave
VashtaNeurotic

They can still mislynch someone. Let's say Percy somehow gets himself mislynched. Vapor kills say Vash.

Then D6:

e.m.c^42
ND
Vaporwave

At this point ND might remember I told them to lynch Vapor and we win. Or maybe Vapor somehow gets emc to vote for ND?

I suppose there is a minimal chance of scum winning still, but I don't really see it.

How do you see it happening?

U make me sound like an absolute moron bro wtf

Sorry, it's the anti-buddying tactic.

[ND]

lol the anti-buddying tactic

[teacon7]

I sure did:

lol NO

Your answer is so convoluted it can't be anything but angling to get me lynched.

If by some miracle you're town, fyi you're so tunnelled that it's bad play. your case makes little sense because of how many contingent propositions you're applying here.

So your case is, if i'm hearing you right:
I'm scum with godfather damo
I *deliberately* say out loud that scum are trying to draw a scan onto the godfather
I scumread damo and not ND in an attempt to draw a scan onto damo
and then i kill damo because I'm have no other options

The argument is flawed in several ways.

FIRST:
If I was scum and trying to draw a copscan onto the godfather, how does that somehow single out damo against any of the other players I had a light scumread on?

ALSO:

I wasn't forced to do anything at EOD. there were other people present at eod who could have moved. moscow did. emc did. you could have moved to ND to prevent a tie. durga was TRYING to get people to move. You yourself told me (and only me? hmm) to move.

Scum (especially bussing scum) would have way less motivation to move. certainly less than town, who doesn't want to see a tie.

There's a false premise in your argument.
Casting it as "well only teacon could have moved," ergo "he's solely responsible becuase he had to do it becuase he already townread ND" is a false dichotomy. It wasn't just ND vs damo. I didn't have to move. I could have stayed where I was like many other players.

If you're going to try to take the credit for the damo lynch, you can't also make this about how teacon had only two options. If I was scum and willing to bus the GF, why not just sit on my hands and watch a tie happen? I wasn't the only one online.

Why is xorx casting my EoD1 actions in a false dichotomy? Why make EoD about me and not anyone else?




SECOND:

@xorx That's not the question I asked. Please don't avoid it.

I didn't ask:

"Why would scum shade their godfather d1?"

I asked:

"Why would scum bus (i.e., vote for and lynch) their godfather D1?"

If you want clarification... "under what conditions is it advantageous for a scumteam to bus/kill their godfather on d1?"

[xorxes]

So your case is, if i'm hearing you right:
I'm scum with godfather damo
I *deliberately* say out loud that scum are trying to draw a scan onto the godfather

I read it more as a suggestion to your teammates than as a description of what was going on.

I scumread damo and not ND in an attempt to draw a scan onto damo
and then i kill damo because I'm have no other options

Yes, but of course at the time you scumread damo (very weakly) and you said you would not lynch ND (after trying to get people to vote for him and seeing a wagon forming fast, maybe you got scared that you would be held responsible and so came up with the reaction test story) there was no way for you to know that those were going to be basically the only options at EOD.

The argument is flawed in several ways.

FIRST:
If I was scum and trying to draw a copscan onto the godfather, how does that somehow single out damo against any of the other players I had a light scumread on?

You couldn't guarantee it, of course, just facilitate it.

ALSO:

I wasn't forced to do anything at EOD. there were other people present at eod who could have moved. moscow did. emc did. you could have moved to ND to prevent a tie. durga was TRYING to get people to move. You yourself told me (and only me? hmm) to move.

Not only you, I also told Vapor and everyone who was there. You think by telling you I was setting you a trap? Explain!

Scum (especially bussing scum) would have way less motivation to move. certainly less than town, who doesn't want to see a tie.

There's a false premise in your argument.
Casting it as "well only teacon could have moved," ergo "he's solely responsible becuase he had to do it becuase he already townread ND" is a false dichotomy.

What are you talking about? When did I say only you could move? I said for you, your move was pretty much forced. It was also forced for Vapor, but he has the excuse of "I'm so in another planet that I can't be held responsible for my actions". You, on the other hand, were very present in the game. You could not take that out.

It wasn't just ND vs damo. I didn't have to move. I could have stayed where I was like many other players.

You would have looked very bad if you didn't move there, do you disagree?

If you're going to try to take the credit for the damo lynch, you can't also make this about how teacon had only two options. If I was scum and willing to bus the GF, why not just sit on my hands and watch a tie happen? I wasn't the only one online.

In hindsight, you're probably telling yourself you should have done that. At the moment, you probably felt more trapped.

Why is xorx casting my EoD1 actions in a false dichotomy? Why make EoD about me and not anyone else?

EOD was not all about you. The only thing I did is explain why your vote does not give you any special towncred, because it was pretty much your only option.

SECOND:

@xorx That's not the question I asked. Please don't avoid it.

I didn't ask:

"Why would scum shade their godfather d1?"

I asked:

"Why would scum bus (i.e., vote for and lynch) their godfather D1?"

If you want clarification... "under what conditions is it advantageous for a scumteam to bus/kill their godfather on d1?"

Of course you would try to avoid it if you could. I don't think it was your plan to lynch him, it just happened that way because of things you could not have foreseen.

[Foxcastle]

##GM NOTE:

FlaviusAetius IS REPLACING Vaporwave.

[Foxcastle]

Let's try that again...

FlaviusAetius has replaced Vaporwave

[Foxcastle]

Let's try that again...

FlaviusAetius has replaced Vaporwave

##GM NOTE: to clarify, the repeated announcement is to try to get the peterbot to pick up the change...

[ND]

wtf y he leave lol

[VashtaNeurotic]

It takes me 8+ minute to post a message, I can't do this anymore

teacon, update yourself, please!

I think you're fully town and exceptional.


And no, as far as I can remember, there was no hooker visiting me

I thought a lovely hooker visited one of you? or maybe rivera got ze hooker treatment and got killed?

This probably answers your question ND. Tbf the game has pretty much been 3 people arguing about who is scum with the rest of the game occasionally posting. And to be fair ND, there isn't much analysis to post about day 1 that hasn't been said, you just happened to be the one who posted the evidence I found the most compelling. Also thanks for being more analytical and stuff post day 1, it's a huge help.

[bozotheclown]

Howdy y'all I'm back. And yeah that post bozo posted has not aged well at all. I mean I could make the argument that there is no way I'd so explicitly call out the godfather in my opening post (and if anything I'd do the other scum) but I doubt that will matter a lot. You'll probably lynch me at some point, but while I'm alive, may as well give my two cents!

Anyway, given the unlikelihood of a scum team wanting to bus the godfather I'd say it's super unlikely both of the scum are there. And as far as counterwagons go...ND was the major one. So uh, yeah, that means the prime candidates for lynching should be Espresso, Durga and ... me. Now I get the whole teacon wagon thing but I honestly think that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for voting damo at a crucial point near end of day, because while yes he couldn't really have voted ND, I doubt scum teacon would put himself in such a situation.

As far as my vote I'd like to point out something interesting (and offer a bit more defense of myself along the way). So the last vote for ND was me...with like 16 hours left in the phase. And then it just stayed that way. Like it was clear by a few hours left in the day that the gas for the ND train was pretty run out, no one new was expressing suspicions and a good amount of people were defending him. So what did I do...try to shift wagons to ensure a townie is lyched, try a new tactic to get people to vote for him? Nope I just... restated old stuff took questions and ... didn't do anything. Like, you'd think I'd do more to ensure that a mafia wouldn't be lynched, especially when I was actually around at an hour left in the day with the vote tied, but instead I just...let the damo momentum continue and have him die? Yeah, I doubt I'd do that as scum.

Meanwhile, Durga actually did try to get a percy wagon going and seemed to be pretty adamant about the ND lynch (and very concerned about the deadline), which is exactly what a scum would have to be in that situation. Meanwhile Espresso just wasn't around at EoD not completely exonerating, but given I know I am innocent and all other factors, gonna ##voteDurga .

I will say that your defense of damo looks so bad that I would expect you to avoid doing it as scum, so maybe you were just unlucky in choosing damo as the one player that you defended D1. However, I was the only one voting for damo at the time, and you listed me as your second scum read and cited the reason for my damo vote as one of the reasons you suspected me, so it is possible you were trying to preemptively discredit the damo wagon.

I do think you are correct that we will lynched you at some point, mislynching three others before lynching you would be a mistake after your D1.

[EspressoPatronum]

Welcome, @FlaviusAetius.

When you get the chance to catch up, I'd love to hear your thoughts on everyone so far.

[EspressoPatronum]

Damn, @teacon is fighting hard for this. I haven't seen someone fight this hard to avoid a lynch in a long time, and it's making me doubt my vote against him. To anyone who's played with scum!teacon before, is this normal in his scum game?

I'll keep it on him for now just so I have a vote in, but I'll likely end up changing it. Target of the change depends on what Durga, Vash, and Flavius say.

[bozotheclown]

Nobody but me voted him for that, so there must have been something else.

xorxes seemed to imply that he did not know why other players suspected damo, but at least 4 players gave reasons they scum read damo before xorxes jumped on him for his read of me. The growing suspicion of damo could have led xorxes to start bussing him.

bozo, I know I can never regain your trust after that game when I buddied you so hard it was disgusting, but try to be more objective here. Damo was not getting lynched without my intervention D1.

You jumped on me for saying ND could be bussing even though apparently he (never?) busses, and now you say I could have been bussing the godfather even though I don't bus either?

Anyway, you will see the light in time, so I'm not too worried.

It is not helping alleviate my suspicion of you that instead of addressing my concerns from this game, you are just saying you would not bus the GF and implying I have a bias against you from M35. We have been in ten games together since:
M36: We were both town, I did not scum read you.
M39: We were both town, I did not scum read you.
M40: I was scum.
M1005: I was town, you were scum, I was sure you were scum by the time you NKed me.
M1006: We were both town, and we suspected each other by the end of the game, but I only voted for you for 3 minutes on the last day.
M41: We were both town, I did not scum read you.
M42: I was town, you were scum, I scum read you and voted for you by D2.
M43: We were both town, I did not scum read you.
M44: I was town, you were scum, I suspected you by D2 but I did not vote for you when you were lynched.
M45: We were both scum.

So in the five games since M35 where we were both town, the only time I suspected you were scum was on D5 of M1006, and I only voted for you for 3 minutes over those 5 games. Where is the evidence that I have a bias against you, or that I have not been objective toward you in the past, so that it is possible for me to be "more objective here"?

By the way, in the four games where I was town and suspected you were scum, you turned out to be scum in three of the four games.

[xorxes]

xorxes seemed to imply that he did not know why other players suspected damo, but at least 4 players gave reasons they scum read damo before xorxes jumped on him for his read of me. The growing suspicion of damo could have led xorxes to start bussing him.

bozo, I know I can never regain your trust after that game when I buddied you so hard it was disgusting, but try to be more objective here. Damo was not getting lynched without my intervention D1.

You jumped on me for saying ND could be bussing even though apparently he (never?) busses, and now you say I could have been bussing the godfather even though I don't bus either?

Anyway, you will see the light in time, so I'm not too worried.

It is not helping alleviate my suspicion of you that instead of addressing my concerns from this game, you are just saying you would not bus the GF and implying I have a bias against you from M35. We have been in ten games together since:
M36: We were both town, I did not scum read you.
M39: We were both town, I did not scum read you.
M40: I was scum.
M1005: I was town, you were scum, I was sure you were scum by the time you NKed me.
M1006: We were both town, and we suspected each other by the end of the game, but I only voted for you for 3 minutes on the last day.
M41: We were both town, I did not scum read you.
M42: I was town, you were scum, I scum read you and voted for you by D2.
M43: We were both town, I did not scum read you.
M44: I was town, you were scum, I suspected you by D2 but I did not vote for you when you were lynched.
M45: We were both scum.

So in the five games since M35 where we were both town, the only time I suspected you were scum was on D5 of M1006, and I only voted for you for 3 minutes over those 5 games. Where is the evidence that I have a bias against you, or that I have not been objective toward you in the past, so that it is possible for me to be "more objective here"?

By the way, in the four games where I was town and suspected you were scum, you turned out to be scum in three of the four games.

OK, what exactly are your concerns that I have not addressed?

As I told you before, I was not paying much attention to damo until I saw that read that he copied from me. Once I saw it, I had very little doubt that he was scum and I set out to lynch him. Of course I knew you and rivera suspected damo because you were voting for him. "The growing suspicion of damo could have led xorxes to start bussing him." You really believe that's what I would do as scum? I see damo has two votes, I find something that nobody else was likely to notice but me, but once I pointed it out I thought would leave no doubt in anyone's mind that damo was scum (there I was completely wrong because absolutely no one else thought it was meaningful, I must be weird that way), so I out the evidence that nobody else would likely find, I lynch the godfather, and then use that gained towncred to push hard for a lynch of town!teacon D2 (presumably to save Durga, who when she saw me bussing damo had no better idea than try to save him and expose herself, otherwise if she is town why on earth would I bother with teacon when everybody else seems all to happy to lynch Durga?), and if I'm wrong about teacon it will guareantee my lynch on D3 (or maybe you think I may be bussing teacon as well, so I will gain even more towncred?). Is that what you think is going on? Two dead scum dead by D3 in exchange for mislynching teacon? Really? Come on, really? Is that the story you are seeing?

[teacon7]

As I re-read, I'm looking forward to hearing you flesh out what you mean by this. Isolated from anything else, it looks like you're newbie scum sheeping scum!xorxes and shading me. jsyk.

Vapor, I'm disappointed because I really thought you were the cop. You softed and everything, so I figured you were going to claim N1 so the doc would save you, you'd get a scan off. I'm going to have to re-read you now that you're clearly not who we thought you were.

Did anyone else think Vapor was the cop, or is this the royal "we"?

hmmmmm I don't like that

It's mostly a royal "we" for effect. I did got the vibe that rdriv also thought vapor was the cop. they were talking about what the cop should do N1 - whether to claim or not. that's all. I think he and I were the only ones.

[teacon7]

When have I ever been a high poster?

tbh, I wouldn't know. I'm meeting you for the first time.

What's your town meta like?
What's your scum meta like?

There's no scum meta to draw on, and this game won't fix that, but I can say that I like to tell a good number of jokes and get a little sad when everything gets serious and the spammers are lynched or nk'd. I check in at least twice a day, but often the games eod time means I will miss it. Even being town, I am perpetually an almost null read for everyone, with leans one way or the other. This is probably the game I have come the closest to being lynched in.

hm.

well the most helpful thing you could do for town then is, every time you're caught up with the game and especially before EoN, make a list of the players (copy + paste from the bot for ease) ... and assign them a ranking somewhere between: scum, slight scum, null, slight town, and town. do this for everyone so we know where you stand.

this helps out in multiple ways. if you're town, it helps us get multiple eyeballs on issues, and keeps people informed on other perspectives. things like "wow, I think this guy is really scummy, but so and so doesn't see that as scummy at all." or "hey wow I didn't see that, thanks for letting me know." if you're town, it forces you to put something on paper that we can use to hang you and your teammates later. if town does this consistently, then scum have to join in b/c they don't want to look scummy for leaving out reads. if scum does it, then we have more information and commitments to how someone reads right now. If they're null, explain why they're null to you.

[teacon7]

If I'm wrong about teacon, almost anything could be true because I'm pretty sure I'm right about teacon. It's not like a slight suspicion or something like that, it's pretty near certainty by now.

I'm only slightly less certain about Vapor, but his last posts seem to confirm all my theories.

re: bold: how are you so certain of all this? don't be daft. we're deducing from imperfect information. the only people who are certain are tunnelly town and scum. the rest of us have to deduce from actual information. if you're town, you're playing the worst game I've ever seen by letting X vs T take up your whole attention.

re: underline: hm. I'd suggest a better method is to take the data, and build your theories FROM the data, rather than interpret new data in light of your theories. that's the difference between induction and confirmation bias.

What do you make of him being roleblocked? It appears that the scumteam agreed with you that he was claiming to be the cop, right?

someone claimed a roleblock? did I miss something?