European Election Night(s)!

[peterlund]

Sure they are imperfect like anywhere else but look at the comparative positions of USA/Western Europe in say 1950’s to now compared to what Asia has achieved in those same 70 years. I don’t believe their out performing of the West is either luck or temporary.

"out performing" you say but I really do not really agree there. If you talk only about economic growth numbers yes, but then you have to take into account that the GNP per capita in those countries was very low compared with the West 1950. Most of the time during the last 70 years, they have been competing with lower salaries and with this attracted manufacturing to be moved over to their countries. But now things has changed a bit. Salaries has increased in Japan, South Korea and in some sectors/cities in China too and now manufacturing industries are looking for new even cheaper countries. But even if their economies have grown a lot last 70 years, the GNP per capita is higher in most of the Western countries than over in Asia.

[Senlac]

Sure they are imperfect like anywhere else but look at the comparative positions of USA/Western Europe in say 1950’s to now compared to what Asia has achieved in those same 70 years. I don’t believe their out performing of the West is either luck or temporary.

"out performing" you say but I really do not really agree there. If you talk only about economic growth numbers yes, but then you have to take into account that the GNP per capita in those countries was very low compared with the West 1950. Most of the time during the last 70 years, they have been competing with lower salaries and with this attracted manufacturing to be moved over to their countries. But now things has changed a bit. Salaries has increased in Japan, South Korea and in some sectors/cities in China too and now manufacturing industries are looking for new even cheaper countries. But even if their economies have grown a lot last 70 years, the GNP per capita is higher in most of the Western countries than over in Asia.

I don’t consider “Gross National Product” very relevant to be honest (by nation or per capita). It’s a rather silly measure. For instance, healthcare contributes enormously to the GNP statistics of the USA, indicating that having many unwell people results in a more prosperous nation...
I guess all that’s needed to get rich is for everyone to get sick, under such a measure of prosperity.

You’ll note I said “quality” of manufacturing, not volume. It is true Japan is not a cheap place to make stuff any longer but that’s not relevant. Japanese corporations such Toyota have become the biggest because they’re the best.
Their future opposition is from aspiring Asian nations wanting to be the best, not decadent western nations that have forgotten what it takes. E,g, Volvo & Saab.

[Octavious]

Have you bought a Toyota recently? They're not great.

I don't share your optimism for Asia. Japan is as stagnant as any Western country, China is adopting the trappings of Western lifestyle and ignoring the core values of freedom and democracy. India is edging ever closer to a dark place. Only a few days ago candidates of the ruling party were celebrating the assassination of Ghandi, calling the man who killed him a patriot.

[Senlac]

I’ll give a quick illustrative example. In 1956 BSA was the biggest motorcycle manufacturer in the world & Britain the largest nation in terms of producing this commodity. By the early 60’s it had become Honda & Japan.
The great Edward Turner, chief design engineer of BSA visited Honda to discover what they were doing in terms of manufacturing that was so much better.
He was one of the greatest engineers In motorcycling history designing the Triumph twin in the late 30’s, way ahead of his time. (I still ride one).
Honda at the time made motorcycles up to 450 cc, they were cheap & good, far better than any small British bike.
Turner found that the technology used by Honda to make the Honda Cub, a budget 50 cc model, surpassed anything BSA could achieve! The quality of their castings was better than BSA used on the then top of the range Bonneville.
He reported his findings back to BSA & predictably nothing happened. They arrogantly thought “Brit” bikes were just better.
In 1969 Honda released the CB750. It was so good no British, European or American company had ever thought such a motorcycle could be made. Loaded with latest features & fantastically well made (& inexpensive comparably).
In 1973 BSA went bust, well that’s a big shock.
In 1990 Triumph rose from the ashes like a phoenix, to restart making motorcycles. The new owner, John Bloor, made a special effort to learn Japanese manufacturing techniques before even releasing a new model. His first bike looked remarkably like a Kawasaki...
It’s the only significant British manufacturer, but a good one.
The biggest manufacturer in the world? Hero. It’s Indian. Emulated Honda’s methods years ago & used to be called Hero Honda.

Just an example however it shows that in this field Britain stopped even trying in the 60’s (even though motorcycles were a very important export product at the time, I believe very close to Whisky, which was #1 in terms of revenue).
We got destroyed. Not by cheap labour, but by massively superior technology.
Unsurprisingly it is an Asian country India, that is now looking like significant opposition to Japan

Discarding motorcycles (one of my hobbies) there’s plenty of other Asian corporations making ours look feeble. Canon, Nikon, Toyota, Nissan, Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, Tata. Just a selection.

They haven’t taken on the likes of Boeing yet, but they will. Time is on their side. When they do, I expect the reaction will be the similar to “British bikes are just better” & the outcome probably similar (rapid bankruptcy).

They’re just ahead of us. While we fret & protest about infant classes on “gay families”, they’re just worried about educating the next generation brilliantly, to compete & win, again & again & again (as Pep Guardiola recently said). If your not doing that you’re losing & it’s a problem.

We can arrogantly view this as unimportant, but the day will come when the inevitable competitive nature of this world will catch up with us & if we take that attitude the winners & losers are already decided. Asia wants to win.

[flash2015]

To be fair though, neither Boeing or Airbus is likely to go bankrupt no matter what the competition from Asia...as the US/EU will subsidize these companies up the wazoo as they both already do.

[flash2015]

Have you bought a Toyota recently? They're not great.

I don't share your optimism for Asia. Japan is as stagnant as any Western country, China is adopting the trappings of Western lifestyle and ignoring the core values of freedom and democracy. India is edging ever closer to a dark place. Only a few days ago candidates of the ruling party were celebrating the assassination of Ghandi, calling the man who killed him a patriot.

China's inevitable collapse if they don't change into a Western democracy has been prophesized since the 80's. Perhaps this prophesy will eventually become true but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Senlac]

To be fair though, neither Boeing or Airbus is likely to go bankrupt no matter what the competition from Asia...as the US/EU will subsidize these companies up the wazoo as they both already do.

True, BSA was considered unimportant. Their products were so poor I’m not surprised...

[Senlac]

Have you bought a Toyota recently? They're not great.

I don't share your optimism for Asia. Japan is as stagnant as any Western country, China is adopting the trappings of Western lifestyle and ignoring the core values of freedom and democracy. India is edging ever closer to a dark place. Only a few days ago candidates of the ruling party were celebrating the assassination of Ghandi, calling the man who killed him a patriot.

China's inevitable collapse if they don't change into a Western democracy has been prophesized since the 80's. Perhaps this prophesy will eventually become true but I wouldn't bet on it.

So true. We who live in Western democracies have remarkable faith that it’s so superior as to be our salvation. Maybe the victory over the magnificent Soviet Socialist Republic has yielded false confidence:-)

[Octavious]

Have you bought a Toyota recently? They're not great.

I don't share your optimism for Asia. Japan is as stagnant as any Western country, China is adopting the trappings of Western lifestyle and ignoring the core values of freedom and democracy. India is edging ever closer to a dark place. Only a few days ago candidates of the ruling party were celebrating the assassination of Ghandi, calling the man who killed him a patriot.

China's inevitable collapse if they don't change into a Western democracy has been prophesized since the 80's. Perhaps this prophesy will eventually become true but I wouldn't bet on it.

So true. We who live in Western democracies have remarkable faith that it’s so superior as to be our salvation. Maybe the victory over the magnificent Soviet Socialist Republic has yielded false confidence:-)

I have no doubt whatsoever that it's superior to dictatorships. I've no idea whether or not China will collapse. The experience of North Korea and Cuba is that dictatorships can be remarkably resilient regardless of how the people live. But I do know that I vastly prefer democracy, that I see democracy as undeniable evidence that the West is a better place to live than China, and I'd defend that democracy with my life.

[Senlac]

Indeed democracy is better than most alternatives, especially if well implemented such as in Costa Rica, where I now enjoy it. However...

I also spent 2 splendid years living in a military dictatorship in Africa. They were remarkably pleasant & Major General Lekhanya did an apparently great job during that time. Crime was almost non existent, the country prospered (compared to now) & the only dissent I encountered was from past political opponents (obviously).

I have no great affiliation for any political system & thus no axe to grind, but there are some merits to dictatorships that should not be completely disregarded (especially if “benevolent”, or close to it) even if popular opinion in democracies is that they have zero value.

[peterlund]

I’ll give a quick illustrative example. In 1956 BSA was ...

The West has not fallen behind Asia technology-wise, just because the UK is a complete failure...

It is ridiculously of you to compare the Western industrial world with the totally collapsed engineering industry of the UK. We all know that the UK engineering has fallen way behind the last 50 years. One example: BMW bought the Mini, put in a proper engine and remade it to a marketable attractive car. Is there any British owned car production around any longer?

[Senlac]

I’ll give a quick illustrative example. In 1956 BSA was ...

The West has not fallen behind Asia technology-wise, just because the UK is a complete failure...

It is ridiculously of you to compare the Western industrial world with the totally collapsed engineering industry of the UK. We all know that the UK engineering has fallen way behind the last 50 years. One example: BMW bought the Mini, put in a proper engine and remade it to a marketable attractive car. Is there any British owned car production around any longer?

Agreed UK manufacturing collapsed badly in the 70’s, but is not alone.
I believe you’re Swedish. How about Nokia, Volvo & Saab? All gone or currently owned by Asian companies, with vehicles now made in Asia & badged Volvo.
BMW actually bought Rover. It was a disaster. However one model (the Mini) was worth retaining when they sold off the rest to Ford & China. It’s a general decline of the west, not just UK.

[peterlund]

Yes I am Swedish.

Nokia is Finnish and it is still living despite making the bad decision to work with Microsoft/Windows instead of jumping onto the Android train 10 years ago.

Saab, was always struggling with too low volumes and bad economy despite having good tech. Too many engineers but sold too few cars. No surprise when the went bankrupt. Engineers are no good salesmen.

Volvo personal cars is though is a different story. Good tech but in the new globalized World also they had problems with too low volumes. Volvo needed to
merge/cooperate with others to lower the relative engineering costs. The solution was that the Chinese Geely bought Volvo, but they did it to get access to the Volvo engineering knowledge and experience. As far as I have heard the Volvo engineering is still located in Sweden but now they are working both for Volvo and for the whole of Geely. So this is not really comparable to BMW's buy and remake of the Mini brand.

[peterlund]

That was about the SAAB and Volvo auto mobile industries.

Both have more thriving truck manufacturing

Volvo trucks I think still is independent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Trucks

while

Saab trucks are 100% owned by Volkswagen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scania_AB

[Senlac]

Yes I am Swedish.

Nokia is Finnish and it is still living despite making the bad decision to work with Microsoft/Windows instead of jumping onto the Android train 10 years ago.

Saab, was always struggling with too low volumes and bad economy despite having good tech. Too many engineers but sold too few cars. No surprise when the went bankrupt. Engineers are no good salesmen.

Volvo personal cars is though is a different story. Good tech but in the new globalized World also they had problems with too low volumes. Volvo needed to
merge/cooperate with others to lower the relative engineering costs. The solution was that the Chinese Geely bought Volvo, but they did it to get access to the Volvo engineering knowledge and experience. As far as I have heard the Volvo engineering is still located in Sweden but now they are working both for Volvo and for the whole of Geely. So this is not really comparable to BMW's buy and remake of the Mini brand.

Apologies, yes Nokia was Finnish. Now owned by Foxconn (Taiwanese). Yes Geely (Chinese) own Volvo & it’s highly debatable it was for technology compared to branding but who cares. The vehicles are built in China & Swedish ownership is over.
If you’re under some delusion that Swedish industry is just great & UK industry not, then you’re in for a rude awakening in the future. I’m not bothered & wouldn’t wish to live in either country, but you go on in you’re dreams.

[peterlund]

If you’re under some delusion that Swedish industry is just great & UK industry not, then you’re in for a rude awakening in the future. I’m not bothered & wouldn’t wish to live in either country, but you go on in you’re dreams.

I am saying that the UK industry literally is non-existent, while there still are some Swedish industry left.

[Senlac]

If you’re under some delusion that Swedish industry is just great & UK industry not, then you’re in for a rude awakening in the future. I’m not bothered & wouldn’t wish to live in either country, but you go on in you’re dreams.

I am saying that the UK industry literally is non-existent, while there still are some Swedish industry left.

You clearly have a “problem” with UK otherwise you wouldn’t be a troll regarding Brexit, UK manufacturing & probably other British related matters.
Don’t worry I do too. That’s why I left in 1982. I can remember closed shop trade unions & their bloody shop stewards, implementing overtime bans & “work to rule” & the 3 day week & endless power cuts & refuse in the streets etc etc.
I have little praise for “Good Old England”, it’s just I don’t see/hear much better from your homeland or most of Europe either, so your Swedish crowing is falling on deaf ears

[peterlund]

Yes our currency SEK "Krona" is a sad story. I have always wanted to adopt the Euro, now more then ever after the Eurozone has fixed the PIIGS problems it had. Now Euro seems like a better idea than ever.

Talking about SAAB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen is mostly designed by SAAB engineers in "tiny little" Sweden. It has been armed by American weapon systems...

[Senlac]

Well I found the European Election Night amusing. Nothing like a squirming politician to generate humour. Good to see both major UK parties get hammered after what they have put the British through in the last 3 years. I’d say there will be some very nervous party officials thinking the spotlight has never been so bright on their party’s behaviour between now & the next General Election. Not a good time to provoke the voters...