Mafia XXXIV Game Thread - Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

[Foxcastle]

@Fox - I saw you retracted your vote on Demon, but why you were voting yesterday for an uncced claim and voted for ND instead of Yav?

Because I remain convinced that DemonRHK is scum, and I don't believe his Watcher claim, which at this point still has produced no actionable or testable propositions. I tend not to think much of PR claims made during the day, particularly under pressure. As far as I can tell, they do more good for scum than town. But Yavuz's came with a clear, actionable, testable proposition, and it fit with his peculiar style of play, so I was inclined to believe him. Lynching ND was the logical way to process that claim if there was a chance that Yavuz was telling the truth about being the cop.

[thamrick]

@GOD QT - please give Yavuz hell for such a terrible play.

I... really don't know where to go from here. I tend to believe you Foxy and would join you on a RHK lynch, but I also think Bo is scum.

[thamrick]

But the good news is that I'm betting there were at least 2 and probably all 3 scum on the Yav wagon yesterday. They likely believed he was Cop since they knew he was town aligned. Probably thought he had a Miller scan.

RHK
Vashta
MLQ
Bo

Tom - townclear
ND - dead

Balki is slightly suspicious.

I'm down to vote any of those 4. RHK can wait, as stated in my EoN reads. My vote is on Bo. It's staying until I've got good reason to move it.

[thamrick]

Don't vote ND today. He's not going anywhere. We need info, not a mostly clear cut cop scan lynch.

Bo said this like he was assuming ND was scum (i.e. believed Yav's claim), but then proceeded to vote for Yav... How obvious can you be? This guy is scum. Don't let him talk his way out of it.

Okay, so first we need ND to show up and claim his role. If he says VT, we have some options

3 roles left that trigger a guilty scan: Hooker, Mafia II, and VT.

If ND is VT, there is a 50% chance he has a bullet proof vest.

So, if we have a gun right now, we should definitely shoot ND. If he has a bullet proof vest, he becomes a town clear and all guilty scans become 100% true.

If we do not have a gun right now, I think we need to lynch ND. Just too much chance that he is Hooker. If we lynch Hooker, our PRs are going to be pretty much unstoppable, with Nurse on Cop or Watcher and Watcher on Cop or Nurse.

This was Balki's first post. His gut reaction was lynch ND. I'm less suspicious of him now, even though I feel like he reasoned through yesterday much poorer than I would have expected from him.

[thamrick]

@RHK - want to help me lynch Bo?

[bo_sox48]

Don't vote ND today. He's not going anywhere. We need info, not a mostly clear cut cop scan lynch.

Bo said this like he was assuming ND was scum (i.e. believed Yav's claim), but then proceeded to vote for Yav... How obvious can you be? This guy is scum. Don't let him talk his way out of it.

Lol, tham, these two things happened independently. Yeah, I believed yav's claim when he made it. I give a claim the benefit of the doubt, until it's proven otherwise, and it was. RHK countered it and did so in a way that seemed totally genuine. Yav slipped up. There's nothing terribly complicated about that.

If I'm scum, how do you suppose I am "assuming ND was scum?" Don't I know who my teammates are by now?

Is it a coincidence that you have been doing your best to softclear Balki and now you two come at me at the same time, having not even tried to pressure me this entire game?

[bo_sox48]

By the way, has anyone considered the ramifications of not listening to me about yav yet or am I the only one that is still of the mind that we wasted a townie? Does that matter?

[bo_sox48]

It really doesn't matter I guess. Just me talking to myself.

I'll answer some questions for a little bit, but I would appreciate a tl;dr from tham and Balki on why I magically became scum just now when I haven't been worth pressuring or questioning at all this entire game.

[thamrick]

Lol you're so obv scum it's ridiculous.

@Everyone - reread yesterday. You can start with pg. 106 if you're feeling lazy. It's a good read.

Tell me why Bo was willing to risk potentially killing our Cop.
Tell me why he believed RHK but not Yav.
Tell me why Yav lying "definitely clears" RHK. (Bo says this)

RHK and Bo are scum buddies. Reread the thread and make an argument why I'm wrong.

[thamrick]

Now I just need to figure out whether MLQ or Vash is their 3rd teammate.

[thamrick]

TL;DR - you wanted to kill Yav because you thought he might have been Cop that had a Miller scan on ND. You were unwilling to even consider that Yav MIGHT have been Cop, no matter how unlikely that was.

[thamrick]

@RHK - why would mafia have roleblocked you last night when they were targetting Tom? Did they think you would have been watching Tom?

[bo_sox48]

Yeesh, RHK too? You criticize me for risking the cop that I clearly showed was not actually the cop, and yet your first move is to call our uncc'd watcher my scum partner?

Of course I considered that yav might have been the cop. You just quoted where I considered that yav might have been the cop, when I said that ND was scum that could wait until another day.

[thamrick]

Then why so determinedly vote Yav and not someone else you thought could be scum?

If there was the slightest possibility that Yav was legit Cop, a townsperson would have wanted to keep him alive. You didn't. You can argue that you were right to not believe him all you want. Doesn't change that in the back of your mind you thought he could have been Cop and you wanted to kill him anyway.

And yes. I am accusing our un CC'd Watcher of being scum.

I'm not advocating lynching him today. He'll have opportunities to prove he's the Watcher.

[thamrick]

Yeesh, RHK too? You criticize me for risking the cop that I clearly showed was not actually the cop, and yet your first move is to call our uncc'd watcher my scum partner?

And how did you do that?

[thamrick]

@Bo
I understand your sentiment, but lynching ND is the safer option. I am of the opinion that ND is town, and that Yuav is scum, but just in case he is telling the truth, we should lynch the non PR. What would be best is shooting ND, and then lynching the looser in that situation. You are making yourself look scummy in your attempts to lynch a un cc'd PR.

This is the correct town position to have had yesterday.

[thamrick]

I've only been able to read on a 10 minute break from work, so I may have missed some things cause I couldn't read everything. I think RHK's claim is more believable than yav's, as I said before, it doesn't benefit cop to claim like he did. Also watcher is protecting our townclears, even if we have the nurse guard our cop, he ceases being useful because of the role block, so watcher > cop. So ##vote yav.

You guys have time to break the tie, but I think lynching yav is the right move here.

Literally tied the vote to try to lynch Cop. Scum #2

[thamrick]

Fuck it ##vote yavuz

Didn't even bother. Scum #3

[bo_sox48]

Tham, at times like these it's obvious. You aren't scum, and I know you aren't scum, but if you drag the scumteam out of the woodwork in order to try and lynch me now that they have a line of PRs that they need to kill instead of me, you would be playing right into their hands.

Yeesh, RHK too? You criticize me for risking the cop that I clearly showed was not actually the cop, and yet your first move is to call our uncc'd watcher my scum partner?

And how did you do that?

Sure, let's go back. We'll start on page 85, when brain trumped my case on ND. I firmly believed at this point that ND was town, and I stuck to that, which is why I was apprehensive to yav's claim the moment that RHK gave me reason to be.

On page 107, I went into detail about why I didn't trust yav's claim, starting with this from RHK on the page prior:

"Yavu is lying and scum. No one visited brain N1. I've literally said this multiple times today."

Before he said that, he said this on page 105:

"Woah woah woah

That’s bullshit

Lemme get to my pc I just woke up"

Now if you have any sense about you, you realize right here and now that RHK isn't faking his claim. Why? He's clearly excited to disprove yav's claim. He is ready to do so before he's even ready to do so. In fact, when I claimed early on in the game that a line RHK wrote was the most genuine line of the game and that nobody was going to beat that, I lied. This quote on page 105 is, by far, the best line of the game and it won't be beat.

So when RHK comes out and says "hey, yavuz is lying, and here's why," providing a perfectly good explanation - nobody visited brain on night 1, despite what yavuz argued - that he has stuck to throughout his game and that yavuz inexplicably missed when he decided to make his fake claim, you bet your grandma's bottom that yavuz isn't the real cop.

You should buy what I'm saying about RHK, but I doubt you will. You definitely buy what I said about ND, though. If you don't, you sure didn't show it when I tried to make a case against ND. The odds that ND was the miller would be 2-in-many, but we already know that Steve was a miller. Therefore, it was 1-in-many. If you are in my shoes and believe RHK's claim for the reasons that I laid out here and laid out before, are you ready to bet ND's life on 1-in-many or would you rather go for the much better odds that yavuz isn't the real cop? I go for the latter, and I would do that whether I were town or mafia.

You want me to take the safe position. I'm not about safety. The safe option bores me. Besides, the game I play isn't safe; it's a little bit reckless and I play without regard for myself. Everyone that plays mafia with me knows that, and that's why a lot of scum teams choose to kill me early on in the game. I told reedeer that I understand why my stance is scummy and I couldn't care less. You seem to have missed this post in your analysis too. I'm confident in my instincts and I would rather be gutsy and wrong than play like, say, Vash and be right.

Do me a favor, tham. If you're going to continue opening me up to a scum-driven witchhunt, at least quote my responses to the things you're quoting. It seems to me as if I already answered most of your concerns. You can't fix this if you never had vision, thamrick, and if you think that I'm going to let you try and manhandle me on this weak ass case of yours, you're way off base.

[MeanLaQueefa]

Tham, lynching yav was the right move to make though. It seemed likely he was lying and not taking him out first meant we lost ND for no reason. If we killed yav, ND wouldn't have been cleared, but it'd have lead to another vt being alive, and we wouldn't have needed to waste the gun on yav. It was the right decision to make as town, and scum were almost certainly on both sides yesterday since it was town vs. town and they knew that. The way it happened, we killed 2 vts and gained very little information. You're trying to lynch people who you disagree with (even though the choice was the best for town in hindsight) and didn't play cautiously like you did, not people who are actually likely scum. I don't think this makes you scummy, but you need to realize it.