MINI MAFIA IV GAME THREAD

[damo666]

##vote worcej

[bozotheclown]

@bozo

You say that a hypo claim is good here, what are your thoughts on the trade off it would require for everyone to come up with their own claim eating into the time people have for scum-hunting. I can see this becoming an issue for people with limited time or variable schedules.

With regards to the no-lynch I can see where you are coming in that it would give us more time to gather information. However, in the end, if we don't act, scum wins by default therefore why would we give them a head start? Curious for you to expand on this a little if it's something you genuinely want us to consider.

I do not think it would take much time to come up with fake claims.

A no lynch vote D1 could result in an extra lynch later when we have more information, and if we are taking a random shot D1, the chances are better we are helping scum. Also, a no lynch would eliminate the risk of forcing a PR to claim D1.

[xorxes]

Cop stronger than tracker. Hard evidence v circumstantial.
Doc multi use v Vig one use (and possible misuse).
FN v Oracle I'm not so sure about.

Oracle gives us either a clear or a scum, FN only a clear.

[thdfrance]

Cop stronger than tracker. Hard evidence v circumstantial.
Doc multi use v Vig one use (and possible misuse).
FN v Oracle I'm not so sure about.

Oracle gives us either a clear or a scum, FN only a clear.

And the oracle makes it public knowledge who is who, with FN only telling the person who was visited that the FN is clear. I think oracle is clearly stronger, because it gives the town way more information faster.

[thdfrance]

A no Lynch is a bad idea I think, granted I did consider it given the smaller format. But still I think we need some sort of info to get the game going, and just accepting a NK doesn’t give us much to work off of.

I think this would be a good game to try a hypocop/hypotracker strategy, with everyone giving a cop report and a tracker report. With the mafia not knowing whether there is a cop or tracker, the reports would be harder than usual for the mafia to use to ID the cop/tracker, but if the cop/tracker in NKed, his results will be known.

As for this I am not sure how useful it is. I actually think it could give the mafia more information that they could use to hunt down the cop, or at least people on the right track. Not to mention the information that we'd be seeing isn't all that reliable.

[damo666]

Cop stronger than tracker. Hard evidence v circumstantial.
Doc multi use v Vig one use (and possible misuse).
FN v Oracle I'm not so sure about.

Oracle gives us either a clear or a scum, FN only a clear.

Fair point

[foodcoats]

hi foodcoats thank you for defending my honor from the evil lord damo. He voted me before id even posted so I dont place much concern on his actions.

you seem to feel very very strongly im a victim here. why am I town again? I dont think I had established enough of a presence to deserve to be so valiantly defended oh white knight of my morning.

Good point brainbomb. I don't actually have any reads on you. The fact that you got targeted by damo and then jamie jumped on that makes me suspicious of them - I think you're just a victim.

I also notice that damo666 changed their vote to worcej, but again without any real justification. That to me sounds like someone trying to push our lynch vote in a direction that is bad for the town.

@food

Where did damo throw brain under the bus?? Are you referring to this post?

Hi Jamie.

As brain is apparently so good as scum I think we should lynch him just in case.

##vote brainbomb

How is that much different to

Don't vote Brain, I have a bro crush on him... and his nonsense is all the more fun...

Since we normally try and avoid lynching a new player but end up mislynching them by D2 anyway.... lets try to lynch a new player and see what happens instead...

##VOTE foodcoats

Are you trying to proposition Brain or just making a really horrible push at a wagon...

It's different because it was a REACTION. damo666 set the tone. Why? Why should we lynch brainbomb? Why should we lynch worcej either? Whereas damo is flailing around trying to cast someone into the pit.

damo, please explain your trigger-happy votes...

And also, because I am a noob, it's okay to be horribly biased against me. Those are laws of the Internet, I believe.

[damo666]

I already told you the brain and xorxes votes were jokes (the reasoning given should have been a giveaway).

The vote for worcej is because he said he was on a rather towny streak.

This is far from a hardclaim (his usual style).

So, the vote is to put him under pressure.

[bozotheclown]

A no Lynch is a bad idea I think, granted I did consider it given the smaller format. But still I think we need some sort of info to get the game going, and just accepting a NK doesn’t give us much to work off of.

I think this would be a good game to try a hypocop/hypotracker strategy, with everyone giving a cop report and a tracker report. With the mafia not knowing whether there is a cop or tracker, the reports would be harder than usual for the mafia to use to ID the cop/tracker, but if the cop/tracker in NKed, his results will be known.

As for this I am not sure how useful it is. I actually think it could give the mafia more information that they could use to hunt down the cop, or at least people on the right track. Not to mention the information that we'd be seeing isn't all that reliable.

The information from the cop/tracker will be reliable when he is dead. I think this could make it harder for the mafia to ID the cop/tracker than having the cop/tracker try to hide their results in their reads.

[DrCJG]

I think this would be a good game to try a hypocop/hypotracker strategy, with everyone giving a cop report and a tracker report. With the mafia not knowing whether there is a cop or tracker, the reports would be harder than usual for the mafia to use to ID the cop/tracker, but if the cop/tracker in NKed, his results will be known.

I can never wrap my head around whether hypo-claiming is generally advantageous to town. Admittedly, I would really like to see how it plays out... but is this really the most advantageous situation?

• I agree with your logic that hypoing both cop and tracker better hides the real information than a single hypoclaim, but why do you think hypoclaiming is better than encouraging everyone to post readlists?
• Here, it is 8-3 though D2 we will likely be 2 less, potentially 6-3 after a mislynch and NK (theoretically worse if we have a trigger happy vigilante).
  
  • I keep trying to think of scenarios where the hypoclaiming gives a clear advantage, but I am struggling. If cop gets a guilty scan, he would certainly need to truthfully hypo... but it just feels like it will result in a very narrow PR-pool. I suppose a town scan is more likely though and is more likely to blend in better. Meanwhile a tracker scan of a town PR movement could potentially lead to exposing another town PR when the tracker flips.
• How much explanation do you think should be given for the choice of hypo-targets?
• Seems like it would be useful to tack on a FN-hypo claim. I can imagine it being helpful to know exactly who the FN visited (aka who knew they were town) after they flip...

I also think a no lynch vote should be considered over a random vote for a game of this size.

##VOTE No Lynch

I disagree on this though.... and I never understand why someone tries to make a no lynch suggestion this early in D1. Generally I think no lynch should be saved for mylo situations... but if you are going to use it D1, don't try and shut down discussion in the first 24 hours. Bring it up in the final 6 when you still don't have a gut feeling on anyone being scum.

If intended to spur discussion, then kudos. If you feel like you have to resign to a random vote... answer my questions above or propose some more strategies.

[thdfrance]

I think this would be a good game to try a hypocop/hypotracker strategy, with everyone giving a cop report and a tracker report. With the mafia not knowing whether there is a cop or tracker, the reports would be harder than usual for the mafia to use to ID the cop/tracker, but if the cop/tracker in NKed, his results will be known.

I can never wrap my head around whether hypo-claiming is generally advantageous to town. Admittedly, I would really like to see how it plays out... but is this really the most advantageous situation?

• I agree with your logic that hypoing both cop and tracker better hides the real information than a single hypoclaim, but why do you think hypoclaiming is better than encouraging everyone to post readlists?
• Here, it is 8-3 though D2 we will likely be 2 less, potentially 6-3 after a mislynch and NK (theoretically worse if we have a trigger happy vigilante).
  
  • I keep trying to think of scenarios where the hypoclaiming gives a clear advantage, but I am struggling. If cop gets a guilty scan, he would certainly need to truthfully hypo... but it just feels like it will result in a very narrow PR-pool. I suppose a town scan is more likely though and is more likely to blend in better. Meanwhile a tracker scan of a town PR movement could potentially lead to exposing another town PR when the tracker flips.
• How much explanation do you think should be given for the choice of hypo-targets?
• Seems like it would be useful to tack on a FN-hypo claim. I can imagine it being helpful to know exactly who the FN visited (aka who knew they were town) after they flip...

I also think a no lynch vote should be considered over a random vote for a game of this size.

##VOTE No Lynch

I disagree on this though.... and I never understand why someone tries to make a no lynch suggestion this early in D1. Generally I think no lynch should be saved for mylo situations... but if you are going to use it D1, don't try and shut down discussion in the first 24 hours. Bring it up in the final 6 when you still don't have a gut feeling on anyone being scum.

If intended to spur discussion, then kudos. If you feel like you have to resign to a random vote... answer my questions above or propose some more strategies.

I am thinking something similar in regards to encouraging people to post reads. My biggest fear is that only some will take the hypoclaim posts seriously and from that it will be easy to discern who is the actual PR and who is not.

[bozotheclown]

I think this would be a good game to try a hypocop/hypotracker strategy, with everyone giving a cop report and a tracker report. With the mafia not knowing whether there is a cop or tracker, the reports would be harder than usual for the mafia to use to ID the cop/tracker, but if the cop/tracker in NKed, his results will be known.

I can never wrap my head around whether hypo-claiming is generally advantageous to town. Admittedly, I would really like to see how it plays out... but is this really the most advantageous situation?

• I agree with your logic that hypoing both cop and tracker better hides the real information than a single hypoclaim, but why do you think hypoclaiming is better than encouraging everyone to post readlists?
• Here, it is 8-3 though D2 we will likely be 2 less, potentially 6-3 after a mislynch and NK (theoretically worse if we have a trigger happy vigilante).
  
  • I keep trying to think of scenarios where the hypoclaiming gives a clear advantage, but I am struggling. If cop gets a guilty scan, he would certainly need to truthfully hypo... but it just feels like it will result in a very narrow PR-pool. I suppose a town scan is more likely though and is more likely to blend in better. Meanwhile a tracker scan of a town PR movement could potentially lead to exposing another town PR when the tracker flips.
• How much explanation do you think should be given for the choice of hypo-targets?
• Seems like it would be useful to tack on a FN-hypo claim. I can imagine it being helpful to know exactly who the FN visited (aka who knew they were town) after they flip...

I also think a no lynch vote should be considered over a random vote for a game of this size.

##VOTE No Lynch

I disagree on this though.... and I never understand why someone tries to make a no lynch suggestion this early in D1. Generally I think no lynch should be saved for mylo situations... but if you are going to use it D1, don't try and shut down discussion in the first 24 hours. Bring it up in the final 6 when you still don't have a gut feeling on anyone being scum.

If intended to spur discussion, then kudos. If you feel like you have to resign to a random vote... answer my questions above or propose some more strategies.

I would not discourage read lists, but if the scum are looking for PRs, changes in a cop's read list can give him away. I do not think any explanation would be necessary for everyone's claims. I agree FN claims could be useful, if the FN visits a scum, it would add risk for the mafia to kill the FN.

I am not trying to shut down discussion, and everyone could still state their scum suspects and still vote no lynch, but the scum would have to make a mistake for the D1 lynch to be better than random.

[bozotheclown]

If we mislynch, and there is a vig that shoots a town N1, it will be mylo D2, so no lynch is a viable option D1.

[DrCJG]

Hi Jamie.

As brain is apparently so good as scum I think we should lynch him just in case.

##vote brainbomb

How is that much different to

Don't vote Brain, I have a bro crush on him... and his nonsense is all the more fun...

Since we normally try and avoid lynching a new player but end up mislynching them by D2 anyway.... lets try to lynch a new player and see what happens instead...

##VOTE foodcoats

Are you trying to proposition Brain or just making a really horrible push at a wagon...

It's different because it was a REACTION. damo666 set the tone. Why? Why should we lynch brainbomb? Why should we lynch worcej either? Whereas damo is flailing around trying to cast someone into the pit.

damo, please explain your trigger-happy votes...

And also, because I am a noob, it's okay to be horribly biased against me. Those are laws of the Internet, I believe.

I don’t agree with your assessment of Damo’s votes, but I like that you have come in opinionated and willing to maintain/argue your point and you didn’t get sidetracked defending yourself. ##unvote

That said, how do you propose generating reactions and discussion without initially “trying to cast someone into the pit?”

[bozotheclown]

I am going to ask everyone to vote on my two suggestions.

1. hypo cop/tracker/friendly neighbor claims, yes or no?
2. No Lynch as a viable day 1 option, yes or no?

bozotheclown: yes, yes
brainbomb
damo666
DrCJG
foodcoats
Jamiet99uk
Nephthys
RagingIke
thdfrance
worcej
xorxes

[DrCJG]

If we mislynch, and there is a vig that shoots a town N1, it will be mylo D2, so no lynch is a viable option D1.

For starters, if we mislynch and there is a vig... they should probably not take a random shot.... as they would know there is no doctor... but, if it is mylo D2 then D2 becomes a better time for a no lynch as it sets up lylo D3.

Furthermore, if you are assuming that a vig shoots a town N1 and the NK goes through, then no lynching D1 and mislynching D2 would still make D3 lylo.

Perhaps you could argue it is better to nolynch D1 to keep PRs safe... but...

Assuming doctor or that the Vig doesn't take random shots... our worst case is we mislynch twice, and mafia NKs successfully twice (which the doctor might stop)... we would reach lylo D3.

This seems clearly better than having to no lynch D1 or D2, but if you disagree please explain.

[DrCJG]

If we mislynch, and there is a vig that shoots a town N1, it will be mylo D2, so no lynch is a viable option D1.

For starters, if we mislynch and there is a vig... they should probably not take a random shot.... as they would know there is no doctor... but, if it is mylo D2 then D2 becomes a better time for a no lynch as it sets up lylo D3.

Furthermore, if you are assuming that a vig shoots a town N1 and the NK goes through, then no lynching D1 and mislynching D2 would still make D3 lylo.

Perhaps you could argue it is better to nolynch D1 to keep PRs safe... but...

Assuming doctor or that the Vig doesn't take random shots... our worst case is we mislynch twice, and mafia NKs successfully twice (which the doctor might stop)... we would reach lylo D3.

This seems clearly better than having to no lynch D1 or D2, but if you disagree please explain.

Now I guess... I didnt actually think through if we no lynch and (doctor/no vig shot)... no lynch D1 +NK would make it 7-3 D2 and a mislynch +NK would make it 5-3 D3 (mylo not lylo)... another no lynch would push us to lylo D4... is this your proposition?

[foodcoats]

Fair point DrCJG.

I'd like to hear from RagingIke. What do you think of our options - no lynch, damo, worcej? I don't think thdfrance is the right target.

[thdfrance]

I am going to ask everyone to vote on my two suggestions.

1. hypo cop/tracker/friendly neighbor claims, yes or no?
2. No Lynch as a viable day 1 option, yes or no?

bozotheclown: yes, yes
brainbomb
damo666
DrCJG
foodcoats
Jamiet99uk
Nephthys
RagingIke
thdfrance
worcej
xorxes

For question 2 are you asking if its viable? Or if we think we SHOULD? I don't think its the worst thing in the world, and its a possibility, but I currently would vote against this.

[foodcoats]

What is "hypoclaiming?"