Fuck Reform, Fuck Farage

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

This is such an odd response.

UK people are obviously more prejudiced to Roma, Poles, etc., than Germans. I'm not sure why you would invent that little lie, which is easily disproven by the Germans themselves (https://uk.diplo.de/resource/blob/2618974/afe99e6b5ee1142d8c146cb6e581ec61/survey-executive-summary-data.pdf)

Your contention that Leave voters were in no way motivated by limiting non-white racism is extremely at odds with the ads and rhetoric of Leave campaigners, including Farage. Farage is now campaigning to end most immigration, which is hard to square with your idea that all that side of politics ever wanted was a points-based system.

The perception of Powell should be informed, everywhere, by what he said and did. Maybe he had some other triumph I'm unaware of. As far as I can tell, he became massively popular in the UK by giving voice to an abhorrent anti-civil rights movement that was wrong and bigoted even at the time, and which has fallen even more out of favour in the decades since.

[Octavious]

Firstly, you know there's a world of difference between Romanians and the Roma, yes? The Roma are an ethnic group that face discrimination all over the world, particularly in Romania. Sorry, I was in a bit of a hurry earlier so didn't notice you switch from Romanian to Roma in your previous post as we (and Farage) were very much talking about Romanians from the start. I don't know whether that was deliberate on your part for some reason I'm not aware of or just a slip, but it's important that we're talking about the same thing especially when you are accusing me of lying about it.

Your contention that Leave voters were in no way motivated by limiting non-white racism is extremely at odds with the ads and rhetoric of Leave campaigners, including Farage. Farage is now campaigning to end most immigration, which is hard to square with your idea that all that side of politics ever wanted was a points-based system.

I made no such contention. I pointed out the objective fact that the points based immigration system favoured by Brexiteers in the Brexit campaign is fundamentally less racist than the Europe first immigration system that is a consequence of EU membership. If you wish to argue against that I'll be interested in hearing your reasoning. If you wish to argue daft points about whether any racist people voted for Brexit (obviously some did. It is the nature of democracy that people are free to vote for whomever they want (unless your courts try to take that freedom away from you) and bad people are as entitled to vote as anyone else) then you can do so with someone else.

The perception of Powell should be informed, everywhere, by what he said and did.

That's lovely. The reality is that the perception of Powell is typically limited to him being a talented public speaker of the early post war era who spoke against the first wave of multiculturalism. You are, of course, perfectly free to wish that people had a far deeper understanding of Powell, but frankly most normal people have never heard of him and those few who have only have a small entry in their mental encyclopedia.

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm conscious I didn't reply to Esquire Bert. I still plan to; it's a complicated issue and I want to do some research.

[Jamiet99uk]

I am now taking some time to try to address in detail the question posed by Bert regarding "mass immigration".

Before I do, I want to make sure I am addressing the "problem statement" (to use Civil Service speak) that Farage / Reform / The Conservatives / Blue Labour are shouting about, and which partly prompted me to create an anti-Farage thread.

The complaint of Farage, his cronies, and his right-wing supporters, appears to me to run basically as follows:

1. There is an influx to the UK of immigrants from majority Muslim countries who make no effort to integrate into British society;

2. A large proportion of the immigrants coming here are bogus asylum seekers or refugees who are actually economic migrants pretending to have asylum claims to exploit the UK's kindness;

3. Their main route into the UK is crossing the English Channel in small boats, often arranged by people trafficking gangs.

The primary focus, they therefore argue, should be strengthening the UK's border against illegal immigrants and bogus asylum seekers or, to quote an often-used phrase "stop the boats".

Before I start to respond, I do not want to be accused of responding to a straw man that I have created. Can Oct / Bert / anyone just confirm I have done a reasonable job of capturing the "problem" that Farage et al are shouting about? The rhetoric is important, because it is the rhetoric that I find bothersome. I think I have accurately summarised it.

[Octavious]

To be honest I think you are in danger of over simplifying and confusing two separate issues.

There is the problem of illegal immigration via the boats, trains, lorries etc in which lots of mostly male immigrants typically with zero documentation arrive in the UK to queue jump or bypass entirely the asylum or immigration process.

There is the parallel problem of legal immigration being simply far too high to allow for any kind of suitable integration.

Farage is usually pretty good at treating these issues separately, but his political opponents often like to lump them together when arguing back, presumably because it helps to portray his arguments as illogical.

Farage will also highlight specific problems in the general mishmash, such as cultural differences seen in people from rural Pakistan, criminal gangs in parts of Eastern Europe etc.

[Jamiet99uk]

Thank you, Octavious.

So:

To be honest I think you are in danger of over simplifying and confusing two separate issues.

There is the problem of illegal immigration via the boats, trains, lorries etc in which lots of mostly male immigrants typically with zero documentation arrive in the UK to queue jump or bypass entirely the asylum or immigration process.

It seems to me that this ^ is often presented as the main problem, at least in terms of the rhetoric. The buzz phrase "stop the boats" has been used routinely by both the Conservatives and Reform for at least the past two or three years.

Would you agree that "stop the boats"; i.e. stopping "illegal" immigration, is generally front and centre of the anti-immigration rhetoric?

There is the parallel problem of legal immigration being simply far too high to allow for any kind of suitable integration.

I agree that this is a second issue and should be treated as a separate question. I will address it as such when I comment.

[Octavious]

Would you agree that "stop the boats"; i.e. stopping "illegal" immigration, is generally front and centre of the anti-immigration rhetoric?

In all honesty, no. I think that the media likes to focus on the boats because it's easy to understand and provide visual images for , and it's certainly a significant part of Farage's stand on immigration, but I'd say that the sheer magnitude of total immigration has been pushed as hard or even more.

[Jamiet99uk]

Would you agree that "stop the boats"; i.e. stopping "illegal" immigration, is generally front and centre of the anti-immigration rhetoric?

In all honesty, no. I think that the media likes to focus on the boats because it's easy to understand and provide visual images for , and it's certainly a significant part of Farage's stand on immigration, but I'd say that the sheer magnitude of total immigration has been pushed as hard or even more.

Then I'm very puzzled because that's the exact opposite of what I'm seeing and hearing.

"Stop the boats", "asylum seekers", "illegal immigrants", "single Muslim men coming here illegally" is the rhetoric I am most regularly seeing and hearing in the North East of England. I am not hearing or seeing people on the streets demanding the immediate deportation of legal immigrants from Ireland, Italy, Poland or Germany.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I just assume most people are concerned about illegal immigration.

In Canada there are at least three flavours of legal immigration skepticism:

— we're taking too many people too fast for our job market, housing market, social services, etc. to handle

— we're taking too many people from specific geographies, contributing to low integration and ethnic segregation — which can exacerbate a class of cultures

— we're taking in too many low skilled people who don't speak the language, especially through temporary residency programs

[Octavious]

Then I'm very puzzled because that's the exact opposite of what I'm seeing and hearing.

"Stop the boats", "asylum seekers", "illegal immigrants", "single Muslim men coming here illegally" is the rhetoric I am most regularly seeing and hearing in the North East of England. I am not hearing or seeing people on the streets demanding the immediate deportation of legal immigrants from Ireland, Italy, Poland or Germany.

To some extent we all see and hear what we're expecting a lot more clearly than what we're not, so I don't think it's any great surprise. All of those things you're talking about do exist, and the media tends to be better at highlighting these stories, but in terms of effort Reform are really pushing against the unprecedented levels of legal immigration.

And you're not seeing demands for the deportation of legal immigrants because nobody is asking for that. The campaign is about pausing immigration to very low levels to allow for time to adjust and integrate the record numbers who are here. I'm a tad confused as to why you're focusing on EU legal immigration as well. The legal end of the immigration spectrum is far broader since Brexit reduced the power of the pro-Europe focus

[Jamiet99uk]

So, to quote from Reform's current / most recent manifesto:

"The small boats crisis threatens our security. Multiculturalism has imported
separate communities that reject our way of life."

"Only Reform UK will stand up for British culture, identity and values. We will freeze immigration and stop the boats."

"Illegal migrants who come to the UK will be detained and deported. And if
needed, migrants in small boats will be picked up and taken back to France."

"Leave the European Convention on Human Rights. Zero illegal immigrants to be resettled in the UK. New Department of Immigration. Pick up illegal
migrants out of boats and take them back to France."

This isn't the media focusing on boats, it's Farage and Reform focusing on boats. You might try to argue (Oct?) that phrasing like "freeze immigration and stop the boats", through the use of a carefully positioned "and" acknowledges there are apparently two separate issues, but I don't think that's how it comes across to the general public, nor is it, in my view, intended to. It seems to me that one of Reform's key messages is banging on about illegitimate asylum seekers arriving in small boats.

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm a tad confused as to why you're focusing on EU legal immigration as well. The legal end of the immigration spectrum is far broader since Brexit reduced the power of the pro-Europe focus

Because Ireland, Italy, Poland and Germany are all in the top ten countries when it comes to legal immigration to the UK in the past few years. But reform isn't focusing on them because Farage wants people to be fearful of brown people, pakis, chinkies, nig-nogs. People from Ireland and Germany are white and it's harder to get ill-informed people in Middlesbrough excited about deporting white people.

It's the same reason why people on the right shout and wail and scream about "muslim gangs" grooming and molesting white girls, but are totally silent about gangs of white rapists. There is a fundamentally racist aspect to Reform's messaging.

[Octavious]

This isn't the media focusing on boats, it's Farage and Reform focusing on boats. You might try to argue

We're not arguing. You asked me for my perception of Farage and his immigration arguments and I gave them to you. There's nothing to argue about. You clearly see it differently, and that's fine. But if you don't want me to share the way I perceive it all you had to do was not ask for it

[Jamiet99uk]

No, that's fine Oct, it just puzzles me that you are able to look at Reform's messaging and not see a focus on non-white illegal immigration, small boats, etc.

Consider the infamous "Breaking Point" poster. Did that depict an orderly queue of legal white migrants from Ireland and Italy? Very clearly it did not. It was racist scaremongering.

[Octavious]

Possibly. My initial thought upon seeing the poster was it was harking back to the "Labour Isn't Working" posters, but it did seem to have a focus on non European immigrants.

I could link dozens of stories about Farage arguing against the unprecedented levels of immigration, and I'm completely confident you could easily do so yourself. There are no shortage of occasions that Farage and Reform have focused on this

[Jamiet99uk]

They do, but to my perception they immediately conflate "too much immigration" with "too many black people in boats".

Also, how exactly are they unprecedented levels if he's been banging on about it for 20 odd years? That's 20 years of precedent right there.

[Octavious]

Because levels have been steadily increasing since Tony Blair's day, until they recently rocketed and hit the unprecedented and utterly unsustainable levels of over a million

The immigration stats aren't a big secret. They're available to everyone and recent levels are insane

[Octavious]

They do, but to my perception they immediately conflate "too much immigration" with "too many black people in boats".

Yes, it is very much a theme of many of our discussions that your perception swings instinctively to race. Now, I'm not claiming that your instincts are wrong all the time, but I very much don't share them

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Yes, it is very much a theme of many of our discussions that your perception swings instinctively to race. Now, I'm not claiming that your instincts are wrong all the time, but I very much don't share them

Your claim here seems to be that it is Jamie who is obsessed with race. I think the snippet that Jamie posted from Reform's platform makes it clear that they are engaging in race-forward rhetoric and he's merely pointing it out.

[Octavious]

Out of curiosity, Bert, is there any feasible way that Reform could persue a policy of freezing all but non essential immigration without you seeing it as race forward rhetoric?