M1035 - Julius Caesar Mafia - Game Thread

[DreamTrawler]

That was good, but now our odds as non PR townspeople go from 2/3 chance of being right to 1/2 so we need to use out time very wisely

Will, why did you say this and then disappear for so long?

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Also, how he prodded you to maybe claim second mason. That looked very much like testing the waters if ghug maybe made a fake claim as VT and he wanted to check if ghug is for real, or maybe you were the real mason.

Like, if he did that to his mafia-partner, that would be much over the top, and could risk easily the death of you both. So I doubt that Bunny would be so thoughtless, when he was shading me for a long time.

This sounds like you’re trying to convince Dream that Dream is town

I had my doubts about that interaction because it was definitely plausible taht Bunny told Dream in mafia chat to stay alert for it, and that was a signal between partners

would such a signal even be needed? Like make a signal to not claim mason by making it look like pushing the partner to claim? Wouldn't it be just enough to say "don't claim" in mafia chat? And wasn't that all during night anyway where mafia can talk at night?

If there was a "change of plans, don't claim" signal for the day, it surly would've been some unrelated phrase, no? And if Bunny actually wanted his partner to claim, then I'm sure he wouldn't have done it in such an obvious way

No it wasnt. It was during the day. And I would not be surprised if an experienced mafia player told their inexperienced mafia teammate to look for a signal

[Kakarroto]

The question is, when Bunny was saying it was Kak-Will, who was he trying to protect out of the two? He starts on Will but goes to Kak just before end of day.

well, I have a very, very tiny hunch here ...

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

The point I hold against Kak the most is his vote and then defense of the Red Neurax wagon

I dont think theres a reasonable justification for doing that; i’ve said it before and I’ve said it again, killing someone for something NAI is just helping the mafia

it's not the NAI stuff, it's the lurking stuff. It's absolutely reasonable to remove lurkers early.

a) there are many mafia that like hiding as lurkers

b) lurkers leave much less information in the game, as any alignment, making them get solved hard

c) lurkers are doing much less at actively trying to get information from others

if we give all lurkers a free pass, just because they've done it before, we easily create games with so low content, that it's just a coin-tossing guessing game. With mafia leaning back and doing jack nothing.

It's already so that mafia tries to remove the most towniest people, so town should try to remove the most sus people. And if there is a lot of unknown stuff from someone, that IS sus.

1. In this game, we have a little anomaly, by Dream surviving until the final 3; Dream who was townread by practically everyone. Why? Mafia did choose to nk dip on night one. I don't know why everyone acts as if that's nothing, this is really a surprising thing to happen. Why was dip chosen as nk target? He was a leading wagon during day one, and the wagon died really only in the endphase. Sure, ghug would've never voted his mason partner out, but still, mafia couldn't have known.

2. There was a time where Bunny and Dream both voted dip too, which is unlikely that a mafia team would do that. Will on the other hand towned dip very hard, or not, from his own words Will had 'mild' reads, but still he talked about dips townyness and not was not quiet about it. It could very well be that the decision to vote out dip was because of that, that Will believed that they would never be able to vote out dip with his read.

Anyway, that lead to Jamie and Dream being the highest townreads of the game, and Jamie getting nk'ed on night two. And on night three, after ghug confirmed he was the PR, he too was removed from the game.

And I know, I can be sus as town, Dream, but I saw you as very towny for a long time, and there was nearly not enough to shake me up to heavily doubt that read. It's rare that I have so few doubts, but I'm fairly confident in you being town. But you surviving until now makes perfect sense, and other towns are having my back with their reads too. Nothing I've seen from Will, at least until now, makes me feel that I'm wrong.

3. Oh, and Will, if we don't talk of lurking and only stuff that's NAI, like you giving new players a pass for a day or two, then yeah, that stuff is stupid voting people over. But lurking is just so bad for town in general, that even if it is NAI, it should be stomped out.

A. So do mafia
B. With more time comes more content. If theres little content D1, then leaving them alive could produce more content
C. True but with time comes forced content

1. Why would I not keep dip alive as mafia? Seems an easy MK target. Unless someone like *You* were worried about a code of some sort

2. Why? Why would mafia not stack on someone MKable? Especially someone making codes and whatnot hinting they’re the PR

3. Well so sue me. Your arguments for lurking revolve around lack of content. Tell me with a straight face I have not produced enough content

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

The point I hold against Kak the most is his vote and then defense of the Red Neurax wagon

I dont think theres a reasonable justification for doing that; i’ve said it before and I’ve said it again, killing someone for something NAI is just helping the mafia

I think this is bad but I also think a lot of people made bad vote choices Day 1. Nevertheless it’s not a good look that Kak was second on the wagon

I think you should reread the game again, that's at least the second factual mistake you are making, and I think it's also the second time where you state that I was second on the Red wagon?

Since page 4, I was first on the wagon and leader until the end. Bunny hopped off from it, making a show out of it, probably because he knew how it would look like when Red turned town. Will was there congratulating him for seeing this 'red was town' and chastised everyone else.

here the call out where he says that Red was town

DAY I. VOTECOUNT VIII.

Red Neurax (V) - Kakarroto, DiplomacyandWarfare, damo666, BunnyGo, DreamTrawler
Jamiet99uk (I) - ghug
ghug (I) - JustAGuyNamedWill
BunnyGo (I) - Red Neurax
damo666 (I) - Jamiet99uk

Under 10 minutes until EoD

This just doesn’t sit right with me

5-1-1-1-1 wagons indicate a townie being wagoned

Idk why people didnt pick up that red was town here

and here, just afterwards, the reaction towards Bunny

woah...the red wagon took off ##vote jamie don't like that movement

+town point for bunny

Will, what about damo?

Bunny was the first and hence got a townpoint

Damo was not and thus did not

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Will, this was the situation, just before Jamie voted damo.

DAY II. VOTECOUNT VI.

damo666 (III) - ghug, DreamTrawler, JustAGuyNamedWill
Kakarroto (II) - BunnyGo, damo666
ghug (I) - Kakarroto

Unvoted: Jamiet99uk

Jamiet99uk must vote again by EoD

Under an hour left in the day

where was your outcry that damo was piled onto? Where was your chastising afterwards that a town was misvoted? Damo easily could've been the second mason here, with how he behaved, why did you react to both situation so completely different?

Was it because you were part if it?

Because it was different. Damo was acting strangely and was being voted for it. Red was acting duly in character.

Yes it *was* because I was a part of it. I believed damo to be the mafia

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

I think this is bad but I also think a lot of people made bad vote choices Day 1. Nevertheless it’s not a good look that Kak was second on the wagon

Its misguided townies who start bad wgaons. Its opportunistic mafia who perpetuate the bad wagons

explain you voting the damo wagon then, and keep silent about it afterwards, not calling out how everyone piled onto him like Red

Red was not acting strangely. He was acting *in character for his town and scum games* he was acting very NAI

Damo was *not* he was acting strange and doing strange things I dont remember to be part of his town game

[Kakarroto]

This sounds like you’re trying to convince Dream that Dream is town

I had my doubts about that interaction because it was definitely plausible taht Bunny told Dream in mafia chat to stay alert for it, and that was a signal between partners

would such a signal even be needed? Like make a signal to not claim mason by making it look like pushing the partner to claim? Wouldn't it be just enough to say "don't claim" in mafia chat? And wasn't that all during night anyway where mafia can talk at night?

If there was a "change of plans, don't claim" signal for the day, it surly would've been some unrelated phrase, no? And if Bunny actually wanted his partner to claim, then I'm sure he wouldn't have done it in such an obvious way

No it wasnt. It was during the day. And I would not be surprised if an experienced mafia player told their inexperienced mafia teammate to look for a signal

for one, Dream said he played mafia (and similar games like werewolf) before, though not on Forum.

second, we speak of this post, I think?

This is strangely dead for KiLo with 5 players left.

And I’m slightly concerned that if Dream is the actual mason based on his last minute question, that ghug made a brilliant bluff at EON.

Not going to entertain it for now. But if dream CCs, I’ll not be too surprised.

I thought of it being sooner, but yeah, it's a bit after the phase change on the day.

But still, if they were the mafia team, they would have had time in their mafia chat before to talk about the next day, and if any fake claiming was in the planning, then they would've prepared something less ... direct. No?

Like something that doesn't so brazenly connect the two. Something hidden. It might be something impulsive, that Bunny thought on the spot that maybe Dream could survive a counter claim against ghug. But how Bunny played, it looked much more like he had a masterplan for the game.

And looking at the words Bunny used, it looks much more as if he is prodding and checking if ghug was just fake claiming as VT and Dream is the actual second mason, not as if they are partnered.

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Will, any response? I understand life and scheduling get in the way but Kak has voted you over this.

Its extremely unfair and dangerously misconstrued to tell me that due to factors out of my control I am killing the game. I have participated when I could, and have posted a LOT when I can

Also @Kak I want you to explain why you think all my townreads are strong. Its very common practice for people to just be like ‘x is town’, without having a strong case or reason behind it

And yes, Bunny didn’t look paired to Kak. I found his responses to Kak towny. Thats why I found you, Dream, to be scummy. But I was wrong, and Bunny was mafia. So i’m reconsidering

maybe I'm a bit too much about it all, but you missed the time to talk to our townclear before the nk. It also feels like you choose to be absent when people are here and active when you are alone. I know I shouldn't let it influence me, but it feels rude and unhelpful not checking in at least once a day.

It's also something mafia can use, to get pressure off of themselves, and while I try to not let it make me get to me, it's just something that bothers me.

as for your "town" thing, usually it's 'towny' and 'townish' or 'townlean'; calling someone strict up town is a very high placement as far as I know. I haven't played here for a bit though, so the lingua could've changed in that time?

I’ve been online at EOD the most important times where everyone tends to be online

And yes, maybe its some lingo barrier. But I was not confident on anything (and still am not) except for Dip being town

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

would such a signal even be needed? Like make a signal to not claim mason by making it look like pushing the partner to claim? Wouldn't it be just enough to say "don't claim" in mafia chat? And wasn't that all during night anyway where mafia can talk at night?

If there was a "change of plans, don't claim" signal for the day, it surly would've been some unrelated phrase, no? And if Bunny actually wanted his partner to claim, then I'm sure he wouldn't have done it in such an obvious way

No it wasnt. It was during the day. And I would not be surprised if an experienced mafia player told their inexperienced mafia teammate to look for a signal

1. for one, Dream said he played mafia (and similar games like werewolf) before, though not on Forum.

second, we speak of this post, I think?

This is strangely dead for KiLo with 5 players left.

And I’m slightly concerned that if Dream is the actual mason based on his last minute question, that ghug made a brilliant bluff at EON.

Not going to entertain it for now. But if dream CCs, I’ll not be too surprised.

I thought of it being sooner, but yeah, it's a bit after the phase change on the day.

But still, if they were the mafia team, they would have had time in their mafia chat before to talk about the next day, and if any fake claiming was in the planning, then they would've prepared something less ... direct. No?

Like something that doesn't so brazenly connect the two. Something hidden. It might be something impulsive, that Bunny thought on the spot that maybe Dream could survive a counter claim against ghug. But how Bunny played, it looked much more like he had a masterplan for the game.

2. And looking at the words Bunny used, it looks much more as if he is prodding and checking if ghug was just fake claiming as VT and Dream is the actual second mason, not as if they are partnered.

1. Well its different. Mafia cant created codes and talk in nightchat in person

2. I’m not quite sure either way. Could have been a spur of the moment thing since bunny had very little time to prepare

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

I dont understand why you are so confident on Dream being town

What definitively makes you think that?

[Kakarroto]

The point I hold against Kak the most is his vote and then defense of the Red Neurax wagon

I dont think theres a reasonable justification for doing that; i’ve said it before and I’ve said it again, killing someone for something NAI is just helping the mafia

it's not the NAI stuff, it's the lurking stuff. It's absolutely reasonable to remove lurkers early.

a) there are many mafia that like hiding as lurkers

b) lurkers leave much less information in the game, as any alignment, making them get solved hard

c) lurkers are doing much less at actively trying to get information from others

if we give all lurkers a free pass, just because they've done it before, we easily create games with so low content, that it's just a coin-tossing guessing game. With mafia leaning back and doing jack nothing.

It's already so that mafia tries to remove the most towniest people, so town should try to remove the most sus people. And if there is a lot of unknown stuff from someone, that IS sus.

1. In this game, we have a little anomaly, by Dream surviving until the final 3; Dream who was townread by practically everyone. Why? Mafia did choose to nk dip on night one. I don't know why everyone acts as if that's nothing, this is really a surprising thing to happen. Why was dip chosen as nk target? He was a leading wagon during day one, and the wagon died really only in the endphase. Sure, ghug would've never voted his mason partner out, but still, mafia couldn't have known.

2. There was a time where Bunny and Dream both voted dip too, which is unlikely that a mafia team would do that. Will on the other hand towned dip very hard, or not, from his own words Will had 'mild' reads, but still he talked about dips townyness and not was not quiet about it. It could very well be that the decision to vote out dip was because of that, that Will believed that they would never be able to vote out dip with his read.

Anyway, that lead to Jamie and Dream being the highest townreads of the game, and Jamie getting nk'ed on night two. And on night three, after ghug confirmed he was the PR, he too was removed from the game.

And I know, I can be sus as town, Dream, but I saw you as very towny for a long time, and there was nearly not enough to shake me up to heavily doubt that read. It's rare that I have so few doubts, but I'm fairly confident in you being town. But you surviving until now makes perfect sense, and other towns are having my back with their reads too. Nothing I've seen from Will, at least until now, makes me feel that I'm wrong.

3. Oh, and Will, if we don't talk of lurking and only stuff that's NAI, like you giving new players a pass for a day or two, then yeah, that stuff is stupid voting people over. But lurking is just so bad for town in general, that even if it is NAI, it should be stomped out.

A. So do mafia
B. With more time comes more content. If theres little content D1, then leaving them alive could produce more content
C. True but with time comes forced content

1. Why would I not keep dip alive as mafia? Seems an easy MK target. Unless someone like *You* were worried about a code of some sort

2. Why? Why would mafia not stack on someone MKable? Especially someone making codes and whatnot hinting they’re the PR

3. Well so sue me. Your arguments for lurking revolve around lack of content. Tell me with a straight face I have not produced enough content

a) that's what I said

b) you totally ignore that someone who posts much early will probably post in the same amount later, thus has a lot higher information output.

Whereas someone who doesn't post much early probably will not produce much later too. The amount varies, but a lurker might not produce more information in a long game than someone who often and regularly posts on the first day. It's like cumulative interest. Well maybe not like, like, but more now with a tendency of even more later.

c) and I pushed and tried getting more content out of Red, and Red mostly refused. At least it was not enough for me to vote somewhere else. And why bother with an information void? Why switch to someone else that produces more information right there? Others will produce more information, more 'forced content' as you said, and the game will get easier for town.

1. that's exactly my point, why nk dip and not keep him alive? When there is a ghug, a Jamie, a damo, who we all know were town, are still alive? Fresh for the taking without a doc involved. But mafia decided to take down dip, because (???)

2. see point one, that IS my point. Dip was a leading wagon day one but was mk'ed. Why? For his Bunny read? Who would really listen to dip when there are other voices that would be louder. I mean, I don't want to put it like no one would listen to dip, but people would more likely listen to damo, ghug or Jamie in this game.

3. well, maybe you have produced stuff, but a lot was because you were voted and pushed, and people didn't listen to me when I wanted to make the day between you and Bunny. I made a big effort to go on Red, on Bunny, on you, to get you into the thread. Don't try to put it out now as if you would've put in the same amount, or more, if I didn't.

[Kakarroto]

Will, this was the situation, just before Jamie voted damo.

DAY II. VOTECOUNT VI.

damo666 (III) - ghug, DreamTrawler, JustAGuyNamedWill
Kakarroto (II) - BunnyGo, damo666
ghug (I) - Kakarroto

Unvoted: Jamiet99uk

Jamiet99uk must vote again by EoD

Under an hour left in the day

where was your outcry that damo was piled onto? Where was your chastising afterwards that a town was misvoted? Damo easily could've been the second mason here, with how he behaved, why did you react to both situation so completely different?

Was it because you were part if it?

Because it was different. Damo was acting strangely and was being voted for it. Red was acting duly in character.

Yes it *was* because I was a part of it. I believed damo to be the mafia

damo always act strangely. People are just selective if they feel like voting for damo or not.

well I do not believe you. And I want to call you a hypocrite for making this distinction.

[DreamTrawler]

I have a question for Will, dredging up something old: why did you fairly confidently say it wasn't Bunny-Kak yesterday? I get that you were trying to swing Ghug but as I said before it instantly implicates you in my eyes.

[Kakarroto]

Its misguided townies who start bad wgaons. Its opportunistic mafia who perpetuate the bad wagons

explain you voting the damo wagon then, and keep silent about it afterwards, not calling out how everyone piled onto him like Red

Red was not acting strangely. He was acting *in character for his town and scum games* he was acting very NAI

Damo was *not* he was acting strange and doing strange things I dont remember to be part of his town game

it was my first game with Red, and I've only red the last 30 pages or so from the previous game, so I have (well maybe now I have a little, but not at the time) idea how Red normally plays. And it's only after we voted out Red that you were this vocal about it.

and I disagree, damo wasn't really on his mafia range. Yes he does strange things, but he does that as town too, obviously. I was of the mindset that he is the likliest to be the other mason so I didn't want to vote for him, but I also didn't want to say it openly. I figured I make him look a little worse in my reads and hint that I might vote him so he wasn't a nk target, but then he took off and I didn't want him gone.

I'm very surprised btw that none of you seemed to take that on of him. Or maybe you did and just saw the vote on him as a good opportunity to get rid of (or force out a claim of) a mason candidate.

[Kakarroto]

I dont understand why you are so confident on Dream being town

What definitively makes you think that?

the way Bunny talked to him as if he needs to convince him, not as if they try to find a way out. Him looking at things and seemingly give it a thought, then come out with a logical explanation, or answer. He doesn't hide and goes head-on into issues. He doesn't seem to have a hidden agenda. Plus other townies saw Dream's towniness too. There speaks so much in favour of Dream being town, and while there are some few things that hint he might be mafia, they are comparatively miniscule.

Like, I'm not 100% convinced Dream is town, or else I would've fully endvoted you there from the start of the day. But I'm arrived at 95 or 98 or so % with all the big and small things. And if I'm wrong and you are town, Will, I just haven't seen nearly enough to counterweight that.

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

I have a question for Will, dredging up something old: why did you fairly confidently say it wasn't Bunny-Kak yesterday? I get that you were trying to swing Ghug but as I said before it instantly implicates you in my eyes.

I believed Bunny’s responses to Kak under pressure were p towny, and I started having doubts about Bunny being evil

But with the hindsight of Bunny being mafia, a lot is clerad up

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

I feel like

Im trapped into votin Kak

Which hopefully isnt terrible but idk if Dream ever dies here. If u are mafia here dream you’ve played one hell of a game

[DreamTrawler]

I have a question for Will, dredging up something old: why did you fairly confidently say it wasn't Bunny-Kak yesterday? I get that you were trying to swing Ghug but as I said before it instantly implicates you in my eyes.

I believed Bunny’s responses to Kak under pressure were p towny, and I started having doubts about Bunny being evil

But with the hindsight of Bunny being mafia, a lot is clerad up

I see. But your main theory yesterday was Bunny-Dream?

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

@Dream I have a question

When Ghug did his whole switcheroo and said ‘actually its bunny/kak’, did you believe ghug right away? Did you switch up that fast or come to an independent conclusion that was validated by ghug