Trump supports genocide

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

One piece of the puzzle we do have here is the US president threatening an ill-concieved US-led ethnic cleansing. Even if it is just bluster or a negotiating tactic, this is a *bad* thing for a US president to do.

[flash2015]

And I suspect we don't agree.

You seem resigned to a view of nihilistic both-sideism that ultimately has you excusing uniquely outrageous Trump admin actions. Just because Biden was bad in some ways shouldn't mean Trump can do literally any horrible thing. It's possible to make value judgments about the degree of bad behaviour. Your president openly advocating the US' direct involvement in an ethnic cleansing seems like an appropriate time to consider the ways in which Trump may be a uniquely horrible President.

There needed to be some response to October 7th, no doubt...but under Biden Gaza was flattened and tens of thousands of innocents killed.

There already was a big push to do ethnic cleansing in Gaza. In the NY area there were multiple real estate events where they were discussing selling off Gaza (my wife protested at many of them). Both my wife and I voted third party in the election.

To say the situation would be so much better under Biden is complete and utter nonsense. They talked a good game about caring...but in practice Israel was doing whatever the hell they wanted.

[flash2015]

I don't want this ethnic cleansing to happen...but to get Gaza back to a liveable functional state will require billions and billions of dollars.

Who would fund this? Israel? US? Arab nations? The EU?

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Biden's approach was bad. It allowed for the near total destruction of Gaza. It did not, however, involve internationally displacing the hundreds of thousands of remaining residents. There are gradations of bad policy here and it seems blatantly obvious to me that Trump's approach is worse.

If the ceasefire holds and Gazans are not forcibly displaced to other countries then an international effort to support reconstruction will begin. The Gazans will live in desperate tent cities for many years. There will never be enough international support to finance this. It will probably be a big battle to decide who governs Gaza and who provides policing/military control. That's all a bad outcome. But how would forcibly displacing Gazans first improve the situation? Instead of living in tents in Gaza, they'll live in tents in Jordan and Egypt where they'll be a reviled imposition. The act of displacing Gazans is probably impossible and any attempt to do this will be violently resisted. An outright ethnic cleansing will ratchet up tensions across the region. You don't need to depopulate Gaza to rebuild it. Gazans need to be involved in the reconstruction process to ensure it's rebuilt for them and not, as Trump envisions, for some Dubai-style global elite.

[flash2015]

I am not supporting in any way shape or form what Trump is coming out and explicitly proposing...but it has been discussed a lot (though not too openly) since Oct 7th. At least we are being open and honest about this discussion now.

The current situation in Israel/Palestine cannot continue indefinitely. The two state solution currently is a pipe dream. Israel continues a slow motion ethnic cleansing in the West Bank making a possible two state solution even less likely...which political figures around the world occasionally wag their fingers at but in reality do nothing to slow it down.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I guess where you see value in "honesty" I see an appalling and dangerous turn in the narrative. A two state solution has seemed like a distant prospect before, but no US President has ever said "let's just rip off the bandaid and ethnically cleanse the place".

Preferring the two state solution isn't just some naive pipe dream. It is the only non-genocidal solution to the problem. The US has not yet exercised all its options to support a two state solution (e.g., putting any pressure on Israel whatsoever). If we're in a moment where bold new ideas are welcome, they should be aimed at more-or-less imposing a two state solution — which is obviously nearly impossible, but so too is Trump's proposal to somehow eject 2 million Gazans.

[flash2015]

I guess where you see value in "honesty" I see an appalling and dangerous turn in the narrative. A two state solution has seemed like a distant prospect before, but no US President has ever said "let's just rip off the bandaid and ethnically cleanse the place".

Preferring the two state solution isn't just some naive pipe dream. It is the only non-genocidal solution to the problem. The US has not yet exercised all its options to support a two state solution (e.g., putting any pressure on Israel whatsoever). If we're in a moment where bold new ideas are welcome, they should be aimed at more-or-less imposing a two state solution — which is obviously nearly impossible, but so too is Trump's proposal to somehow eject 2 million Gazans.

But which side is actually going to push this? I have seen no will on Democrat side to actually push it. They consistently cave to whatever AIPAC says. Any Democrat which disagrees gets primaried with AIPAC money and gets replaced with someone that will toe the line. How does this change?

[Jamiet99uk]

I don't want this ethnic cleansing to happen...but to get Gaza back to a liveable functional state will require billions and billions of dollars.

Who would fund this? Israel? US? Arab nations? The EU?

Israel should pay for it.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Maybe I'm a little confused. Despite the appalling Biden approach to all this, the status quo was yielding a ceasefire that, if it held, would have eventually supported the re-building of Gaza while Gaza's residents remained there. That's much more consistent with the end goal of a two state solution than ethnically cleansing the area.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I don't want this ethnic cleansing to happen...but to get Gaza back to a liveable functional state will require billions and billions of dollars.

Who would fund this? Israel? US? Arab nations? The EU?

Israel should pay for it.

In a just world, Iran would pay for much of it as well.

[flash2015]

Maybe I'm a little confused. Despite the appalling Biden approach to all this, the status quo was yielding a ceasefire that, if it held, would have eventually supported the re-building of Gaza while Gaza's residents remained there. That's much more consistent with the end goal of a two state solution than ethnically cleansing the area.

After letting Israel flatten Gaza for 16 months and only a couple of days before he left we finally got at least a temporary cease fire (hopefully it lasts). That's it. That is all he achieved.

[flash2015]

I don't want this ethnic cleansing to happen...but to get Gaza back to a liveable functional state will require billions and billions of dollars.

Who would fund this? Israel? US? Arab nations? The EU?

Israel should pay for it.

Sure, and it should have been something that was mandated on them before they started hostilities. You destroy it, you rebuild it.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Maybe I'm a little confused. Despite the appalling Biden approach to all this, the status quo was yielding a ceasefire that, if it held, would have eventually supported the re-building of Gaza while Gaza's residents remained there. That's much more consistent with the end goal of a two state solution than ethnically cleansing the area.

After letting Israel flatten Gaza for 16 months and only a couple of days before he left we finally got at least a temporary cease fire (hopefully it lasts). That's it. That is all he achieved.

Okay, but what I'm hearing is you don't like Trump's plan, but are also agnostic about whether ethnically cleansing 2 million Gazans is just as good of a plan as where we were mere weeks ago?

[flash2015]

Maybe I'm a little confused. Despite the appalling Biden approach to all this, the status quo was yielding a ceasefire that, if it held, would have eventually supported the re-building of Gaza while Gaza's residents remained there. That's much more consistent with the end goal of a two state solution than ethnically cleansing the area.

After letting Israel flatten Gaza for 16 months and only a couple of days before he left we finally got at least a temporary cease fire (hopefully it lasts). That's it. That is all he achieved.

Okay, but what I'm hearing is you don't like Trump's plan, but are also agnostic about whether ethnically cleansing 2 million Gazans is just as good of a plan as where we were mere weeks ago?

A few weeks ago Israel were flattening Gaza and killing tens of thousands of innocents. It is largely irrelevant whatever Biden did in the last few days of his administration. If he actually have a shit, he could have put pressure on Israel to make the ceasefire happen way earlier.

[flash2015]

We have people coming out NOW complaining about how bad Trump's plan is.

Where the fuck were you for the last 16 months???

[Jamiet99uk]

After letting Israel flatten Gaza for 16 months and only a couple of days before he left we finally got at least a temporary cease fire (hopefully it lasts). That's it. That is all he achieved.

Okay, but what I'm hearing is you don't like Trump's plan, but are also agnostic about whether ethnically cleansing 2 million Gazans is just as good of a plan as where we were mere weeks ago?

A few weeks ago Israel were flattening Gaza and killing tens of thousands of innocents. It is largely irrelevant whatever Biden did in the last few days of his administration. If he actually have a shit, he could have put pressure on Israel to make the ceasefire happen way earlier.

Strongly agree with this. Biden and Harris were weak as shit on Israel.

[Jamiet99uk]

(And Starmer in the UK too. The UK and US gave Israel a free pass to engage in widespread war crimes).

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Yeah, Trump's plan to directly use the US military to ethnically cleanse Gaza is worse than what came before and deserves condemnation.

I've also been critical of former Biden approach, including in this forum, partly in response to diligent reminders from Jamie about how bad things have gotten there. I condemn the former approach, but that doesn't make me confused about whether Trump's proposal is much worse.

[civwarbuff]

The idea with the Gaza proposal is to rotate out the population which is willing to depart in order that Gaza be able to be rebuilt and made livable again at the end of the war. Hamas must be destroyed though as a pre-condition. That certainly must be brought to fruition as a necessary condition.

It is nice to see you again Jamiet btw.

[Jamiet99uk]

The idea with the Gaza proposal is to rotate out the population which is willing to depart in order that Gaza be able to be rebuilt and made livable again at the end of the war. Hamas must be destroyed though as a pre-condition. That certainly must be brought to fruition as a necessary condition.

It is nice to see you again Jamiet btw.

You too.

But that isn't the proposal. Trump has proposed removing the population of Gaza permanently.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn57neepx4vo

No right of return.