MAFIA 92 - The return of the Witchfinder General [GAME THREAD]

[worcej]

I disagree with killing someone just cuz its interesting and different

Us LHF slots need to die somehow

I am a firm believe in voting based on merit on individual games. Just because someone is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ in one game does not mean they will be the same in another

Hence we should vote ghug vecna or damo if and only if they are scummy

Our communities town game performances dictate something needs to change.

I don’t see how voting someone not based on scuminess and rather based on not being consensus will change that

The thing that needs to change is how we solve and how we townread/scumread people

@brain
I shield new players so they can play the game. Just a common courtesy. Its NAI for me

I am presenting these kill choices at people based on my own opinions.

How do you suggest we do better at townread/scumread people without considering player's ability to arrive at consensus?

[worcej]

Can you explain why thinking the same is inherently bad when it comes to the game of mafia?

depends on the case. I think early game we really should value a variety of reads and different types of analysis. late game, when we get into like lylo territory or smth then yes, consensus is very important. but early game (when we still have a sizeable population that can vote together safely), we should use the experience of these players to our advantage as town. They probably have a higher chance to notice something others gloss over, or notice underlying connections, etc.

I guess maybe our definition of consensus isn't exactly the same, because I don't disagree that other opinions are good - what I am focusing on is the lack of entertaining other's opinions and observations over their own.

Do you think the three players I named deserve to be kept past D1 just because they have their own opinions?

[JustAGuyNamedWill]

Our communities town game performances dictate something needs to change.

I don’t see how voting someone not based on scuminess and rather based on not being consensus will change that

The thing that needs to change is how we solve and how we townread/scumread people

@brain
I shield new players so they can play the game. Just a common courtesy. Its NAI for me

I am presenting these kill choices at people based on my own opinions.

How do you suggest we do better at townread/scumread people without considering player's ability to arrive at consensus?

You scumread them?

Regarding what we do different, that, I’m not sure about. There is no cheat code for reads, I think we just have to get better at finding what is truly AI and what is NAI fluff

[brainbomb]

I cant speak for anyone but myself - I dont sign up for these games to
Play with any one specific player. So I dont target specific players as people
Id like to have around longer than others. Nor do I have specific people I find more enjoyable to go after.

I used to go ape shit on certain players and it was all just ego driven.

I agree with the signup bit; my shield is only for a players first game

Whats your read on worcej regarding this plan of his?

His plan involves killing damo who I think is always a compelling day 1 wagon to ramp up. So thats a vote of sure from me

[worcej]

To expand - I feel ghug, damo, and Vecna prioritize expressing their opinions over listening to others and operate with the expectation (not a malicious expectation fwiw) of people to follow/sheep them.

I think it's interesting to entertain eliminating one of them on D1 as their style is very good at being maintained as scum and also can be a liability to the town in later stages of the game.

[worcej]

I don’t see how voting someone not based on scuminess and rather based on not being consensus will change that

The thing that needs to change is how we solve and how we townread/scumread people

@brain
I shield new players so they can play the game. Just a common courtesy. Its NAI for me

I am presenting these kill choices at people based on my own opinions.

How do you suggest we do better at townread/scumread people without considering player's ability to arrive at consensus?

You scumread them?

Regarding what we do different, that, I’m not sure about. There is no cheat code for reads, I think we just have to get better at finding what is truly AI and what is NAI fluff

I do not scumread a single person only 4 hours into this game and anyone who already honestly does is being far too narrow minded.

[kingofthepirates]

Do you think the three players I named deserve to be kept past D1 just because they have their own opinions?

not just opinions, but experience and a strong ability to read others, as you yourself have said.

[ghug]

I tend to feel a town consensus is most often aligned towards shared bad direction. Especially early game the consensus tends to just be wrong for the sake of its own petulance. Individuals who pride themselves as game solvers tend to earn their voice as time rolls on which usually helps replace the bad mob mentality with one of confidence.

So killing within a pool of players who will eventually be confident seems worse than just letting the mob kill someone random.

My list of players would not probably include ghug as I think he is better at showing independent reasons why he is town in spite of his reads usually being wrong / reversed.

For example ghug will on occasion have a scum in his top tier town and have many weak and bad town among his desired kill choices. He gets killed by mafia teams who think he could be a PR mostly - not mafia teams scared of his abilities.

When he is mafia; you basically need him to die early or he will just win.

I nearly quit at one point over being N1ed every game but sure brain they definitely just think I'm a PR all the time.

[worcej]

Do you think the three players I named deserve to be kept past D1 just because they have their own opinions?

not just opinions, but experience and a strong ability to read others, as you yourself have said.

What do you prioritize in looking for when choosing a D1 kill?

Note: scum is a shit answer here.

[ghug]

It's the liability of these actions later in the game that I am highlighting as a more useful move to make for kills on D1 versus our standard random kill on D1 that we may get lucky on or not.

true, but day 1 seems a bit harsh (day 2/3/4, maybe, get some of their reads and views out in the open, give them some time to analyze and stuff,etc.)... I also think that day 1 is the only day we actually have a 'choice' in kills (in all subsequent days, we play off reactions to death, views that can get people killed, etc.) and everything is a blank slate (maf doesn't chat/plan/coordinate, no investigative role info, etc.), and we shouldn't just knock someone with basically a proven track record (by your definition of "good").

Interesting you feel like we have a choice with D1 kills because, to me, the kill is usually decided at the last second and, due to this, I feel we have no choice in the kill. People make random no-tie votes and don't have strong opinions for the death.

The last-second daykills give us info to work with later. The problem is people insist on townreading people who push scum D1 when it's more likely to be scum on average.

[worcej]

true, but day 1 seems a bit harsh (day 2/3/4, maybe, get some of their reads and views out in the open, give them some time to analyze and stuff,etc.)... I also think that day 1 is the only day we actually have a 'choice' in kills (in all subsequent days, we play off reactions to death, views that can get people killed, etc.) and everything is a blank slate (maf doesn't chat/plan/coordinate, no investigative role info, etc.), and we shouldn't just knock someone with basically a proven track record (by your definition of "good").

Interesting you feel like we have a choice with D1 kills because, to me, the kill is usually decided at the last second and, due to this, I feel we have no choice in the kill. People make random no-tie votes and don't have strong opinions for the death.

The last-second daykills give us info to work with later. The problem is people insist on townreading people who push scum D1 when it's more likely to be scum on average.

I mean, any kill gives information for later. I just feel the random/frantic method results in chaos and takes away real choice that kotp indicated he feels exists on D1 only.

[worcej]

##vote damo

Of my 3 nominations, damo is the least valuable in regards to other opinions.

[ghug]

I don't like worcej's plan (regardless of whether I'm on his list) and I think his picks are odd given his motivation (I think damo is actually more motivated to build consensus than most and Vecna's consistently low activity makes him less of that game-driving "good player" than me used to be). I think it's coming from a good place, though, and I think the questionableness of the logic is generally a sign that worcej is letting us see his real thought process.

[ghug]

Interesting you feel like we have a choice with D1 kills because, to me, the kill is usually decided at the last second and, due to this, I feel we have no choice in the kill. People make random no-tie votes and don't have strong opinions for the death.

The last-second daykills give us info to work with later. The problem is people insist on townreading people who push scum D1 when it's more likely to be scum on average.

I mean, any kill gives information for later. I just feel the random/frantic method results in chaos and takes away real choice that kotp indicated he feels exists on D1 only.

Sure, choice is silly. I'm just here for a good time.

[brainbomb]

Fair enough

As an addendum I must say I have seen

“Well town is never gonna get rid of ghug so we may as well kill him; besides he may also be a PR”

[worcej]

I don't like worcej's plan (regardless of whether I'm on his list) and I think his picks are odd given his motivation (I think damo is actually more motivated to build consensus than most and Vecna's consistently low activity makes him less of that game-driving "good player" than me used to be). I think it's coming from a good place, though, and I think the questionableness of the logic is generally a sign that worcej is letting us see his real thought process.

TL;DR - "worcej is town because his opinion is bad."

[kingofthepirates]

Do you think the three players I named deserve to be kept past D1 just because they have their own opinions?

not just opinions, but experience and a strong ability to read others, as you yourself have said.

What do you prioritize in looking for when choosing a D1 kill?

Note: scum is a shit answer here.

imo engagement is the big tell (while also taking track record into consideration, since iirc there are some players who notably pop off late game, such as chaqa). more messages is always a good thing. for looking at fellow town, it's more chances to see them rooting out mafia and more chances for productive discussion. for looking at mafia, it's more chances for a slip to come out, and more chances to learn the inner workings and reads and who they may want to eliminate, which can later be traced back.

[worcej]

I don't like worcej's plan (regardless of whether I'm on his list) and I think his picks are odd given his motivation (I think damo is actually more motivated to build consensus than most and Vecna's consistently low activity makes him less of that game-driving "good player" than me used to be). I think it's coming from a good place, though, and I think the questionableness of the logic is generally a sign that worcej is letting us see his real thought process.

To counter-argue - I think damo is actually bad at building consensus due to low engagement/content posts that don't explain his thought process.

He does at least make his opinions known, just not the why.

Also, let me remind you of the several times he's forced his opinion via last second voting or causing ties lol...

[worcej]

not just opinions, but experience and a strong ability to read others, as you yourself have said.

What do you prioritize in looking for when choosing a D1 kill?

Note: scum is a shit answer here.

imo engagement is the big tell (while also taking track record into consideration, since iirc there are some players who notably pop off late game, such as chaqa). more messages is always a good thing. for looking at fellow town, it's more chances to see them rooting out mafia and more chances for productive discussion. for looking at mafia, it's more chances for a slip to come out, and more chances to learn the inner workings and reads and who they may want to eliminate, which can later be traced back.

So, and I am paraphrasing here, but you'd prefer a lurker/low content poster on D1?

[kingofthepirates]

So, and I am paraphrasing here, but you'd prefer a lurker/low content poster on D1?

with exceptions ofc but yeah