Trump supports genocide

[CaptainFritz28]

I have come here to upset people.

If you are offended by this thread, GOOD. You are a fascist-enabling asshole who should be stopped. And by "stopped" I mean the way we stopped the Nazis in 1945.

Tell me we shouldn't have stopped the Nazis in 1945, I fucking dare you.

You're doing a much better job at making me pity you than upsetting me.

If you want to upset me with what Trump is doing and saying, it's a lot more effective to do so in a way that doesn't make you seem like a lunatic who doesn't care about anyone on the other side and wants them all dead.

There are upsetting things to point out, like this. You've made it a lot less upsetting and a lot more like a threat from an insane mane who doesn't know what he's talking about and doesn't really care if I care than something that should upset me.

[CaptainFritz28]

I want anyone who supports Trump, or Musk, or both, to know that if I met them in real life I would, if possible, punch them in the face with the intent to injure them.

I think this is the correct response to a fascist. I think this is reasonable. If you don't want me to be like this, disown Trump, disown Musk, and start urgently working to expel them from power.

If you like them, if you like what they're doing, then you'd better keep your fucking distance.

I do not think my attitude is extreme. We killed thousands of Nazis in WW2.

And you think this convinces anyone of what? You think we're going to be scared of meeting a wild Jamie on the streets and that that's what will finally turn everyone against Trump?

No! Convince me with reasoning, evidence, and rational debate that Trump is an evil fascist instead of just saying it and then threatening me if I disagree even slightly.

This is called tribalism, Jamie, and it's what led to Trump's rise in the first place. That's right. I'm saying that your mentality here is what caused Trump to take power. People like you gave us Trump. And that's coming from someone who voted for him because the only alternative was someone with this mentality.

You want people like Trump to stay out of office? So do I. If you really want that, start treating people with an ounce of respect, or else don't expect politicians to.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Fritz, Jamie has already apologized.

As the only identifiable Trump voter on the forum yours is basically the only opinion that matters here — is making Gaza into a "Riviera" what you were hoping for when you cast your ballot?

[CaptainFritz28]

When I voted, this issue in particular seemed like a wash to me. Biden and Harris had their chance to do something, anything, about it and they didn't. I think Trump's approach is just as ridiculous, but the trick is that it's just as much so. When you've got two options and neither shows any promise to do anything good for a particular issue, and neither really addresses it either, it becomes an issue which matters very little when making the choice, because no matter how you vote nothing good happens.

So no, this is not what I wanted when I cast my ballot. But I didn't believe, and still don't have any reason to believe, that voting the other way would've done any better.

As for Jamie, I said what I said because he's done such before and apologized before (meaning that I can't take his word for actually meaning it), and so I want him to hear from me (who presumably he believes is a neo-Nazi evil fascist genocide supporter), his target audience, that calling me a neo-Nazi evil fascist genocide supporter isn't going to do anything to make his point to me. If he hears from the people's he's trying to convince that he's not even coming close to being convincing, that should be incentive to try something else.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

That you think the former Biden approach on Gaza is equivalent to Trump's plan to forcibly relocate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians has me thinking you may be complicit in supporting a fascist Fritz. The name calling might not be helpful, but at a certain point there's the fact of the matter.

[CaptainFritz28]

To add a bit of context, most of my friends in college (who are mostly pretty rigjt wing), when we have discussed this thus far, have voiced the opinion (with which I agree) that this is advocating for a foreign war, which is the last thing that we want.

It seems that there's a very good chance that Mossad and the Israeli government have a grip on all of American politics, right and left wing, and at least among my friend group we think that perhaps the only solution that would really do anything is to have a complete draining of the swamp (including Trump and his colleagues) and almost a reset of American politics. Unfortunately, the only way to achieve that at this point would be in violent revolt, which currently has way more immediate negative effects than long-term benefits.

[CaptainFritz28]

That you think the former Biden approach on Gaza is equivalent to Trump's plan to forcibly relocate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians has me thinking you may be complicit in supporting a fascist Fritz. The name calling might not be helpful, but at a certain point there's the fact of the matter.

Let them die while funding their killers... move them away from the conflict zone forcibly...

Both seem pretty bad.

[CaptainFritz28]

I've asked Jamie this before, because he seems rather quick to put the label of fascist on things, but either he missed it or chose not to respond... I notice you're doing something similar, so I'll pose this question to you:

What is fascism, in your own words?

As a follow up, purely out of curiosity and for the sake of full clarification for better engagement, what makes it evil based on your set of moral values?

Please note that this inquiry has no implications for a support or justification of fascism. I ask that you take what I say here as it is, without any assumptions.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

This take just seems willfully ignorant.

There is a ceasefire. There likely would have been hostage exchanges. Israel is war weary and likely would have been restrained. The peace would provide an opportunity for greater humanitarian aid to Palestinians. If it held, it would have meant the beginning of reconstructing Gaza. The Palestinians would remain in Gaza. The distant prospect of a two state solution, the only means of preventing a genocide, would have again been conceivable.

Instead, Trump has very explicitly said his goal is for the US to annex Gaza, expel the Gazans (the literal definition of an ethnic cleansing), and build hotels there. It seems like extremely motivated reasoning to think this approach is just as good as where we were at mere days ago.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

We can quibble about fascism all day and get no where.

I can say without reservation Trump is promoting ethnic cleansing and US imperialism. His plan for Gaza is logically similar to Putin's plan for Ukraine. Whatever you want to call it, it's morally reprehensible.

[CaptainFritz28]

I don't mean to quibble, I'm legitimately just curious because I've not gotten a straight answer from anyone on here about what fascism is in your own words, and what specifically about it is evil. Once again, it has nothing to do with endorsement of the ideology, nor justification or in any way support, but pure curiosity.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Fascism is a brand of right wing authoritarianism characterized by dictatorial power, extreme nationalism, and the suppression of opposition.

It exists on a spectrum of authoritarianism. When the former Biden administration clearly sought to censor certain viewpoints by leaning on social media, or sought ad hoc changes to the Supreme Court, these were steps towards authoritarianism. Trump has many such policies, including his efforts to erode the independence of the career civil service, bend the legal system to the executive's will, etc.

There should be reasoned debates about what moves are authoritarian-style power grabs and which are the legitimate exercise of policymaking. Mass deportations are a plausibly credible goal — they're also a pretext for a huge expansion in federal authority, mass detentions, reinvigorating Guantanamo, etc. This is just one contentious issue among many.

Starting an imperial project of annexing land in other countries, even if it requires the war crime of relocating its inhabitants, is another policy on the authoritarianism/fascism scale. But getting bogged down in the "is it technically fascism" debate risks missing the forest for the trees. However you want to characterize it Trump is proposing starting a foreign war and committing war crimes. Even if it's just a negotiating tactic it would be a truly despicable one, not unlike Putin's nuclear brinkmanship. It is dangerous and nonsensical. It erodes America's standing in the world. It empowers America's adversaries in their own might-makes-right ambitions to annex their neighbours.

[CaptainFritz28]

We can quibble about fascism all day and get no where.

I can say without reservation Trump is promoting ethnic cleansing and US imperialism. His plan for Gaza is logically similar to Putin's plan for Ukraine. Whatever you want to call it, it's morally reprehensible.

Hence why I said it's advocating for foreign wars, which is the opposite of what is good.

[CaptainFritz28]

Fascism is a brand of right wing authoritarianism characterized by dictatorial power, extreme nationalism, and the suppression of opposition.

It exists on a spectrum of authoritarianism. When the former Biden administration clearly sought to censor certain viewpoints by leaning on social media, or sought ad hoc changes to the Supreme Court, these were steps towards authoritarianism. Trump has many such policies, including his efforts to erode the independence of the career civil service, bend the legal system to the executive's will, etc.

There should be reasoned debates about what moves are authoritarian-style power grabs and which are the legitimate exercise of policymaking. Mass deportations are a plausibly credible goal — they're also a pretext for a huge expansion in federal authority, mass detentions, reinvigorating Guantanamo, etc. This is just one contentious issue among many.

Starting an imperial project of annexing land in other countries, even if it requires the war crime of relocating its inhabitants, is another policy on the authoritarianism/fascism scale. But getting bogged down in the "is it technically fascism" debate risks missing the forest for the trees. However you want to characterize it Trump is proposing starting a foreign war and committing war crimes. Even if it's just a negotiating tactic it would be a truly despicable one, not unlike Putin's nuclear brinkmanship. It is dangerous and nonsensical. It erodes America's standing in the world. It empowers America's adversaries in their own might-makes-right ambitions to annex their neighbours.

Glad to see that we agree.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

We can quibble about fascism all day and get no where.

I can say without reservation Trump is promoting ethnic cleansing and US imperialism. His plan for Gaza is logically similar to Putin's plan for Ukraine. Whatever you want to call it, it's morally reprehensible.

Hence why I said it's advocating for foreign wars, which is the opposite of what is good.

I guess what I'm not seeing here is that it is extra wrong to expel ~2 million Gazans, which will be the source of a lot of (in my view, deserved) wrath against and condemnation of the Trump admin.

[CaptainFritz28]

I mean yes, it is, but that's already been stated. Repeating the sentiment would be redundant.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

And I suspect we don't agree.

You seem resigned to a view of nihilistic both-sideism that ultimately has you excusing uniquely outrageous Trump admin actions. Just because Biden was bad in some ways shouldn't mean Trump can do literally any horrible thing. It's possible to make value judgments about the degree of bad behaviour. Your president openly advocating the US' direct involvement in an ethnic cleansing seems like an appropriate time to consider the ways in which Trump may be a uniquely horrible President.

[CaptainFritz28]

If we consider this singular issue, then I might agree. When it comes to the U.S.' general foreign policy over the years, a very quick historical review will reveal that he's not even close to being the worst or even at all unique.

But that's considering this isolated from the rest of all policy. I could do that with any issue and say that Biden or Obama or Bush or Clinton or even the likes of Reagan, Roosevelt (either one), or Washington are uniquely horrible, when in fact it is simply the case that every politician has done, and every politician will do, some things that are bad, even horrible in their own regard.

Alas, I don't have the time to discuss every single aspect of political contention over the whole history of the United States, but you get my point. Does that excuse anything Trump does? Nope.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

And yet here you are circling the wagons, throwing up your hands and saying "both sides are pretty bad". I don't expect to change your view on this, but maybe this thread will help you understand why some people are extremely animated against the Trump admin. It's not just partisan bluster in every case. Many reasonably assess Trump's approach on Gaza, on free trade with allies, etc., to be actually worse than what came before, not just some new type of equally bad policy.

[Octavious]

It goes without saying that displacing an x million strong population against its will is clearly illegal and clearly wrong. We have a duty to international law to support the right of Palestinians to remain if that is their wish.

What is interesting are the mechanics of it. Trump's opening position in most things tends to be rather outlandish, but thus far they've always been feasible. Tariffs on everyone is doable, putting the Panama Canal under US control is doable... but this seems far less so.

Unless, of course, Trump has already achieved agreements with some of the major Arab nations in the region... which would be a surprise. Jordan would struggle to take many more Palestinians without risking it's own collapse as a kingdom. Egypt on the face of it would also suffer massively from an influx of angry Palestinians. Trying to convince nations further afield to take them seems far fetched. The logistics of trying to force people to move in those numbers without generating countless government ending images seems impossible.

It feels we're missing a few crucial pieces of the puzzle here