Elon Musk plans US - UK war in 2025

[Jamiet99uk]

Everyone else avoids such accidents by not making highly emotional and stressful speeches in front of loads of people. There's no mystery here. The equivalent of this kind of event is only experienced by the likes of us when giving the best man's speech at a wedding and similar rare events. Now, if you compare like with like and examine best man's speeches you will find rather a lot of strange incidents, gestures, and incredibly poorly chosen jokes because that is what people in those situations do. Especially people who are naturally awkward like Musk. It is normal. It is human. Most of us are not highly trained politicians or polished Holywood actors.

To your analogy, the best man would have apologised by now, and assured the couple and their families that he meant no offence.

Has Musk done similar? I don't believe he has.

At best, at best here, with the most generous interpretation, your argument indicates that he is unfit to hold senior public office. At best.

[CaptainFritz28]

Random observation: I find it funny how much people's political viewpoint biases them to blindness of one thing or another. Even here no one is exempt (including myself).

My gut reaction upon seeing the headlines was that they were exaggerated or wrong. I remember well the "good people on both sides" lie perpetuated by many mainstream outlets and, like Oct, I am profoundly suspicious about the accuracy of reporting on Trump and Co., which is incredibly biased (and for what reason? There are enough actual crazy things to report on, why make things up?)

I've voted for both major parties in Canadian elections.

And I agree our politics absolutely colours our perception of events.

But, like, there's a full length video. With all the appropriate context. It's right there. It doesn't require a journalistic slant. We can't know Musk's intent. But to argue it wasn't intentional you have to think it's possible to mistakenly make an extremely specific salute twice on accident. It was not a nonchalant wave, but a straight armed salute. I'm perplexed by what physiological assumptions must behind of such a claim — "he's awkward" or "he's autistic" doesn't really explain how nearly everyone else avoids such accidents.

I don't mean to particularly target you - if anything I mean myself more than anyone else as I think this particular event over and try to draw conclusions.

(Sidenote: while I am an ardent supporter of capitalism as the superior economic system in our broken world, I am highly suspicious of anyone as rich as Musk, and really think he especially is too eccentric to be useful when involved in politics much. I can't say that I like the man in his new position, although until he actually does something I can't say that I dislike him with much reason either.)

[CaptainFritz28]

Have you considered that you have cause and effect backwards? People observe the world and interpret it based on their own judgement and experiences, and then lean towards politics that reflect how they see the world? Or at least lean away from politicians who repeatedly say things that sound like utter bollocks to them?

I imagine it's probably very circular. How one is raised will affect how they think, which will affect how they vote/who they support or are biased towards, which will effect how they think further. But yes, there is quite a bit of truth to that.

[Octavious]

Everyone else avoids such accidents by not making highly emotional and stressful speeches in front of loads of people. There's no mystery here. The equivalent of this kind of event is only experienced by the likes of us when giving the best man's speech at a wedding and similar rare events. Now, if you compare like with like and examine best man's speeches you will find rather a lot of strange incidents, gestures, and incredibly poorly chosen jokes because that is what people in those situations do. Especially people who are naturally awkward like Musk. It is normal. It is human. Most of us are not highly trained politicians or polished Holywood actors.

To your analogy, the best man would have apologised by now, and assured the couple and their families that he meant no offence.

Has Musk done similar? I don't believe he has.

At best, at best here, with the most generous interpretation, your argument indicates that he is unfit to hold senior public office. At best.

If I have ever given the impression that I think Musk is suitable for high office I assure you that was not my intention

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

(Sidenote: while I am an ardent supporter of capitalism as the superior economic system in our broken world, I am highly suspicious of anyone as rich as Musk, and really think he especially is too eccentric to be useful when involved in politics much. I can't say that I like the man in his new position, although until he actually does something I can't say that I dislike him with much reason either.)

I guess I don't know what you're waiting for re: Musk.

In very short order he has signalled his support for a literal neo Nazi party in Germany, demanded that the UK's elected leader resign (after making baseless accusations he was a pedophile), and suggested in his tweets that a US civil war is "inevitable".

What about this puts you on the fence?

Even if the new Department of Government Efficiency is wildly successful, it seems to me that some other competent person could have served in Musk's role in government and would have avoided all this other outrageous and counterproductive stuff.

[CaptainFritz28]

I mean policy wise. I don't like him in the position because I think his character is poor, he acts often in selfish interest, and he certainly doesn't belong in public office.

So I'm not really on the fence... I don't think he should be where he is.

I say I don't dislike him because I haven't seen what he's done yet in actual practice, so I don't dislike him as holding the office until he does something stupid... which probably won't be too long.

That's a really weird way of wording it... sorry, I've not had as much sleep as I probably should be getting the last two weeks (early morning classes every day this semester) and so when I'm not doing work I'm not as focused.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I'd suggest you can't judge Musk, or Trump for that matter, solely on "policy". Their behaviour, their statements, their online persona, etc., are all policy relevant in the sense that they affect the function of the US government.

Even if Musk ends up having some genuinely genius insight in the realm of, say, trimming the size of government, it will still still matter that he very unnecessarily pissed off the UK and German governments and their voting publics.

Hope classes are going well — and that at least some of the sleep deprivation is related to having a good time in the evenings.

[CaptainFritz28]

I'd suggest you can't judge Musk, or Trump for that matter, solely on "policy". Their behaviour, their statements, their online persona, etc., are all policy relevant in the sense that they affect the function of the US government.

Even if Musk ends up having some genuinely genius insight in the realm of, say, trimming the size of government, it will still still matter that he very unnecessarily pissed off the UK and German governments and their voting publics.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I really do stress that I don't think he's a good man for the job. I don't like the fellow, especially not now.

Hope classes are going well — and that at least some of the sleep deprivation is related to having a good time in the evenings.

Aye, that they are. I've had many a long and deep conversation with some grand ol' friends here, and I've found that I really do enjoy engineering more than I expected to.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Everyone else avoids such accidents by not making highly emotional and stressful speeches in front of loads of people. There's no mystery here. The equivalent of this kind of event is only experienced by the likes of us when giving the best man's speech at a wedding and similar rare events. Now, if you compare like with like and examine best man's speeches you will find rather a lot of strange incidents, gestures, and incredibly poorly chosen jokes because that is what people in those situations do. Especially people who are naturally awkward like Musk. It is normal. It is human. Most of us are not highly trained politicians or polished Holywood actors.

I doubt this is a topic worthy of further debate, but the more I think about this point the more it is evidently wrong.

Musk is the head of a massive publicly traded organization. He speaks in public all the time and those speeches are always extremely high stakes, with the potential to deeply affect his own net worth and the economic interests of his thousands of employees and investors. This format of speaking is in fact much more unscripted and improvised than what is done by Hollywood actors. It is nothing like cousin Randle giving his first public speech since the fourth grade at your wedding.

Plus Musk is literally the richest man on earth and a senior official in the US government. He absolutely receives the best possible media training of anyone, anywhere. These are skills you can learn. Lesson one is undoubtedly don't Hitler salute, goose step, or otherwise make an absolute ass of yourself.

No one can make you believe his Sieg Heils were Sieg Heils, but you're really grasping at straws.

[Octavious]

He is the richest man on Earth and supremely confident in his own abilities and fundamental rightness. Of course he has access to the best possible media training anywhere, but whether or not he has ever opted to take it is another matter entirely. This is not unusual and you see it constantly in UK politicians. A lot of them are truly dire communicators who continue to be truly dire until they cock-up badly enough for head office to notice and force them to do a course, after which they become noticeably more dull (or better, depending on how you view these things). All of these people are perfectly capable of doing media training off their own back. All of them could have been given media training at the start by their own Party. But time and time again it just doesn't happen.

In terms of his public speaking experience, it is centred around him talking to his kind of people and him talking to people he's the boss of, and always about subjects he considers himself to be an expert on. It is not by any stretch of the imagination a given that he's good at this sort of political event, and indeed looking back at his previous performance (I vaguely recall him prancing around like a drunken loon) suggests he's not good at this sort of thing at all.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Musk has taken to making jokes about his Sieg Heils rather than clarifying it was unintended:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elon-musk-doubles-down-on-salute-controversy-with-a-bunch-of-nazi-jokes_n_67925d50e4b07025a739deef

Sorry it's a HuffPost link. The better alternative would be going to X directly, but that requires an account and I've never really been a Twitter guy.

Jokes like these could be consistent with Oct's view that this was some sort of spasm — now he's making fun of everyone's overreaction.

To me these jomes feel like evidence that it was in fact a deliberate gesture designed to troll the audience.

I think we've already all agreed in advance that this type of behaviour is rather appalling for a senior statesman, even if there is lingering disagreement about the intention behind the infamous salute itself.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

I was mistaken, you can just look at the X post without an account: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1882406209187409976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1882406209187409976%7Ctwgr%5Eb117a5bec9f55de341498928248f2b8c4e71bb61%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffpost.com%2Fentry%2Felon-musk-doubles-down-on-salute-controversy-with-a-bunch-of-nazi-jokes_n_67925d50e4b07025a739deef

[Octavious]

A deliberate gesture designed both to troll and not to be a Nazi salute I see as plausible. As is it being just a gesture that wasn't intended to troll at all.

I read an interesting article by a biographer of Mussolini who said that it was definitely not a fascist salute, and anyone caught making that gesture to Mussolini or Hitler in the stead of a fascist salute would have been exiled or executed. But there have been not insignificant historians who are convinced it was one.

What I have yet to hear a convincing narrative about is, if it were an actual fascist salute, what his motivation is supposed to be? Or indeed what my motivation is for saying I don't think it was one if I actually believed it was? The idea that one of the world's best known businessmen decided to come out as a Hitler fanboy in front of millions at the President's inauguration sounds ridiculously far fetched

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

My point is that Musk seems to have intentionally done the salute you were so eager to waffle about — much more plausible than the "he's autistic" or "he somehow forgot how to speak in public despite doing it literally all the time" defenses lol. Yes, the goal was almost certainly to troll. That itself seems like an absolute shit thing to do. You seem not to think so?

Even though it was most likely trolling, it was taken as a sign of support by prominent neo Nazis on Twitter. They of course have an incentive to play up or misinterpret what was a moronic joke. But it doesn't help that Musk hasn't yet clarified that he didn't mean it as support for them. And it underscores why a prominent politician probably shouldn't Sieg Heil in the first place regardless of the reason.

Musk doesn't need to do a Hitler salute to let us know he enjoys a certain type of politics. He openly loves the AfD, who are not just a normal right wing party lol.

[Jamiet99uk]

It has also been revealed that Musk is a paid subscriber to a virulently racist pro-apartheid X account.

Musk not only follows “Boer” (@twatterbaas) but has a paid subscription for “bonus content and extra perks.”

https://www.mediaite.com/news/elon-musk-is-a-paid-subscriber-to-shockingly-racist-pro-apartheid-south-african-x-account/

[Jamiet99uk]

Trump is also now proposing that the Palestinian population of Gaza should be deported to Indonesia.

He's such a dickhead it's unreal. I hope he has a heart attack soon, the fat orange shit.

[Jamiet99uk]

Republicans are now planning an amendment to the US Constitution to remove the presidential term limit.

Congressman Andy Ogles (R-Tenn.) has proposed an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that would allow President Trump to serve a third term in the White House, which is currently prohibited under the Constitution.

I think the USA may just have had its last ever "democratic" election.

[Octavious]

The chances of Trump serving a third term are zero. He's won, he's got his two terms, and he's getting on with doing the things he wants to do. To the people who matter to Trump he has achieved their respect and is looking forward to his place in history and influencing the next in line. He won't risk that by staying on unnecessarily and doing a Biden. Unless Musk has invented a regeneration machine he's not staying.

The whole "end of democracy" crap that both sides have indulged in is one of the most depressing aspects of recent elections. Democracy only exists if people believe in it, and everyone persistently arguing that it's dying will eventually do real damage.

[Jamiet99uk]

The chances of Trump serving a third term are zero. He's won, he's got his two terms, and he's getting on with doing the things he wants to do. To the people who matter to Trump he has achieved their respect and is looking forward to his place in history and influencing the next in line. He won't risk that by staying on unnecessarily and doing a Biden. Unless Musk has invented a regeneration machine he's not staying.

Then why is his party proposing this amendment to the Constitution?

[CaptainFritz28]

He's such a dickhead it's unreal. I hope he has a heart attack soon, the fat orange shit.

So shocked that anyone would dream of assassinating him when people talk about him like this! There's no way that constantly hearing such things would ever influence someone towards violence, no...